Mindset & Metabolic Health

When Mike DiDonato was 19 years old, his father passed away suddenly. This experience changed the way he looked at the world. When faced with adversity, Mike focused on mindset to take his wellbeing into his own hands. In this episode we explore Mike’s personal journey with metabolic health and Levels. We talked about:

• Aligning work with values
• Life lessons from Mike’s dad
• Running 4x4x48
• When vs what we eat

Aligning work with values

The realization that what’s happening externally doesn’t necessarily dictate internal results left Mike DiDonato seeking more purpose in his work.

When I was younger for sure I was in sports, and everything, but I think it’s helpful to zoom out and maybe talk about the why’s, and I think a good elevator pitch about this was given … I forget which investor update, but it was whenever I joined full time, and the long and short of it are my family history and genetics aren’t doing me any favors. My fitness obsessed dad passed away from cardiovascular disease before the age of 50. I was just about 19 years old, so I have this acute awareness that what’s happening externally is not necessarily indicative of what’s happening internally. And I think it was a little bit before Levels really started to heat up, when Sam and Josh got connected, or I should say reconnected. I just kind of realized that I needed to do something more aligned with my values and that would provide this sense of purpose that I need to keep going.

Mindset shapes world outlook

A focused mindset provides direction beyond the task at hand and forms a framework for progress.

We all have different ways of thinking about things like exercise, or things like diet. And so, mindset is this sense of willpower. It’s this sense of being, this sense of belonging, and it is a sense of identity, and so for Mike DiDonato mindset, metabolic health, fitness, all of these factors really formed his identity. They formed who he is, and the outlook that he has on the world.

Tackling adversity with mindset

We all have adversity and challenges, some more than other, and at different parts of our lives. It definitely wasn’t right after my dad passed. I’d say it was a few years after and a switch started to flip, and one of the things, and I think when we’re younger we don’t necessarily listen to our parents, but I could hear, and one of the things that I could hear my father saying is that there is no tomorrow, and leave everything on the field, and ultimately at the end of the day win or loss as long as you can look yourself in the mirror and be okay and know that you’ve given everything that you had to whatever the task that you set out to accomplish.

Turning discipline into freedom

Navy Seal Jaco Willink’s mantra “discipline = freedom” provides a path for tackling adversity and struggle.

I realized that these challenges they don’t have to be bad things. They’re challenges, and you can use these things as fuel to propel yourself, and as I started to understand that and got more so back into fitness I guess I saw fitness as a self-imposed challenge or struggle, and understanding that with constant repetition you can continue to go further and further. And I think ultimately what that fitness is, it’s about discipline. And I think it’s Jaco Willink that says this, “Discipline equals freedom.”

4x4x4

Mike talked about his experience with this grueling challenge and the lessons he learned running 2 marathons in 2 days.

4x4x48 you run four miles every four hours for 48 hours, and it was started by this person David Goggins. I should probably fill in the gaps a little bit here. David Goggins he’s a former Navy SEAL, ultra marathoner, held the pull-up record, and has done many, many things and more recently I think it was a few years ago he wrote a book called Can’t Hurt Me. He’s pretty intense for sure, but the message is pretty strong. A few people on the team have asked me about this and I think at times I can come across intense and I know for sure he can, and you would assume with those credentials it would be this macho go crazy book, but it’s a book about being vulnerable, and ultimately accountable to yourself.

Workout changes with Levels

Metabolic health is highly personal. With accurate date from Levels, it’s possible to debunk preconceived beliefs about nutrition.

I do all of my workouts in a completely fasted state, whether that’s a long endurance run, a hit workout, crossfit, anything. It didn’t always used to be that way before Levels. I thought that you needed pre-workout fuel but that’s definitely, I can at least say personally, not the case.

Levels impact on holistic performance

Sleep, nutrition, and exercise all have a huge impact on performance, Levels is able to show when anything falls out of balance.

the big thing for me was definitely changing what I was eating, and thanks to Levels I personally know that I really don’t need much given the fat stores that we hold can burn a lot of calories. I think the two biggest challenges were that initial meal after the first leg and then just thinking about sleep, and also being around other people, like just going about their regular lives and being a little sleep deprived it was a little bit of an interesting experience, but it was definitely worthwhile.

Training the ability to weather adversity

Not everything is sunshine and rainbows but Mike shared how he applies rigorous discipline to be ready for any challenge in his life.

there have been times in my life, or in my work career, that you feel like this is the end, or it’s the worst thing, but no matter what happens the storm or that time period eventually ends, and when it does end you want to make sure that you’re ready because typically opportunity comes. So, to answer your question is there’s always something to be done, and I know that doing these things whether it’s running, or exercising, or whatever it is it gives me that discipline and it helps me be the best version of myself, and that doesn’t mean the fastest or the strongest. That doesn’t really matter. That ability to endure and keep going when you don’t want to it’s just like another muscle ultimately.

Things you don’t like can make you stronger

Breaking through the pain of training fasted is being proven to have long term benefits for metabolic health.

I never liked to run when I was younger. I was a sprinter. I never wanted to run more than a mile, but to be out there fasted and running 15 plus miles with no water, no food, it’s more mindset than anything and I think understanding that I’m going to be fine. It might not feel great, but I’m going to be fine. And if I continue to do this over time with repetition the more recent research it suggests that we can become what we’re calling more fat adaptive so we can actually start using fat for fuel at higher thresholds if that makes sense.

Empowering education with data

Historically people have had to guess about the impact of different foods on their metabolic response. Mike helps Levels real-time data can empower behavioral change.

empowering people with this current I guess insight into where they are today and how their current lifestyle choices are affecting them internally. First, you have to understand, and see this is what’s happening, this is how I’m responding to all of these inputs, and then the next part in that is the education piece, giving them the tools and the understanding to ultimately if they want to, whatever that goal is, whether that’s weight loss, or for many of our members longevity, like expanding not just your lifespan but your health span too.

It’s not just what you eat but in what context

Berries might spike his blood sugar but Mike explains how in the right context they can be a tasty and healthy snack.

I give people the example all the time where berries are one of my favorite things, but if I eat them in a normal setting my glucose goes to Mars with Elon Musk, so I don’t have them in a regular setting, but that doesn’t mean that I’ve just eliminated these things from my diet. Through a lot of trial and error I found that post-workout, especially post intense workouts or long runs a lot of typically have a higher insulin sensitivity, so insulin takes the excess glucose from the blood and gets to our cells. During these post-workout events, because we have this enhanced insulin sensitivity I can eat a lot of berries actually, experience how you eat it, if it’s paired well with a good protein source and fiber, and some healthy fats, then I can definitely do it really well.

Mike DiDonato: I think when we’re younger we don’t necessarily listen to our parents, but I could hear in one of the things that I can hear my father saying is that there is no tomorrow, and leave everything on the field, and ultimately at the end of the day win or loss as long as you can look yourself in the mirror and be okay and know that you’ve given everything that you had to whatever the task that you set out to accomplish. And I think after my dad had passed away and I had some time I realized that these challenges they don’t have to be bad things.

Ben Grynol: I’m Ben Grynol, part of the early start up team here at Levels. We’re building tech that helps people to understand their metabolic health and this is your front row seat to everything we do. This is A Whole New Level.

Ben Grynol: We all have these things in life that sometimes we don’t want to do, but we end up doing, and that’s where mindset comes in, something that Mike DiDonato, head of member success at Levels, he’s got this immense focus when it comes to fitness, when it comes to his own metabolic health, and the way he thinks about diet, sleep, exercise, all these inputs that really make him metabolically healthy. But mindset isn’t something that he just focuses on whether it’s fitness, or life, or work, it’s something that is woven throughout his entire life.

Ben Grynol: He tries to surround himself with circumstances that aren’t always easy. They’re not always things that he wants to face. For some of us it’s things like running. Running can be extremely gratifying for some people. It can be something that is very enjoyable, and for other people it’s something that they don’t look forward to doing and they want to steer away from it, but we’re all individuals and we all have different ways of thinking about things like exercise, or things like diet. And so, mindset is this sense of willpower. It’s this sense of being, this sense of belonging, and it is a sense of identity, and so for Mike DiDonato mindset, metabolic health, fitness, all of these factors really formed his identity. They formed who he is, and the outlook that he has on the world.

Ben Grynol: And so, here’s where we dug in.

Ben Grynol: You are Mike. You are the third Mike, the trifecta is here, and represented well. We’ve had on Miz, that’s Michael Mizrahi, who’s head of operations. We’ve had on Mike Haney who’s the editorial director and head of content for levels. And now, we’ve got one of the founding team members, Mike DiDonato, who’s head of customer success. It’s funny because part of this story and part of this journey that we’ve talked about since we’ve been building Levels and doing this podcast I guess over the past six months or so everyone’s name gets woven in and out of the storyline and your name has come up more than once on many occasions partly because you’ve been exposed to so many different things.

Ben Grynol: And so, it’s cool to be able to actually jam and talk about something that’s near and dear to your heart, like fitness and exercise. You are the epitome of fitness and exercise and you’re this figurehead if you want to call it that we all look up to internally as being the target, like you’re the one where you’re like we have to get moving because look at Mike. Mike does it every day. And so, where did it all start that you got into fitness. I guess what created that burn and that mindset?

Mike DiDonato: It’s a really good question. And when I was younger for sure I was in sports, and everything, but I think it’s helpful to zoom out and maybe talk about the why’s, and I think a good elevator pitch about this was given … I forget which investor update, but it was whenever I joined full time, and the long and short of it are my family history and genetics aren’t doing me any favors. My fitness obsessed dad passed away from cardiovascular disease before the age of 50. I was just about 19 years old, so I have this acute awareness that what’s happening externally is not necessarily indicative of what’s happening internally. And I think it was a little bit before Levels really started to heat up, when Sam and Josh got connected, or I should say reconnected. I just kind of realized that I needed to do something more aligned with my values and that would provide this sense of purpose that I need to keep going.

Mike DiDonato: I spent most of my adult life in finance and a variety of different roles and what I learned there was the importance of building and maintaining relationships and then over the last 10 years I’ve done personally a lot of self-exploration searching for these micro-optimizations not only physically but mentally as well to ensure that I don’t suffer the fate that the genetic lottery has bestowed upon me.

Mike DiDonato: Josh had introduced me to Levels before it was even called levels. What was it? Keep listening on the podcast, Maple Syrup. I remember those days. Maple Biometrics and Maple Syrup, and it was a perfect time. I had decided to leave finance, and when the opportunity presented itself to join Levels it was definitely a no-brainer.

Ben Grynol: So, when you were younger, like you’re in sports, and I guess you’re always busy if you want to call it that being physically active in some way, shape, or form, when did the mindset start? Was that earlier in your teens, or was it after your dad passed away that you started to think with the, we’ll get to Goggins, but this Goggins-esque mindset, and we’ll call it the Mike D mindset because it’s a way that you think about doing things when it comes to fitness on days when you don’t want to do them and that’s what really break down mindset.

Ben Grynol: And so, when did that mindset actually start?

Mike DiDonato: It was after that my dad had passed. I think we all have adversity and challenges, some more than other, and at different parts of our lives. It definitely wasn’t right after my dad passed. I’d say it was a few years after and a switch started to flip, and one of the things, and I think when we’re younger we don’t necessarily listen to our parents, but I could hear, and one of the things that I could hear my father saying is that there is no tomorrow, and leave everything on the field, and ultimately at the end of the day win or loss as long as you can look yourself in the mirror and be okay and know that you’ve given everything that you had to whatever the task that you set out to accomplish.

Mike DiDonato: And I think after my dad had passed away and I had some time I realized that these challenges they don’t have to be bad things. They’re challenges, and you can use these things as fuel to propel yourself, and as I started to understand that and got more so back into fitness I guess I saw fitness as a self-imposed challenge or struggle, and understanding that with constant repetition you can continue to go further and further. And I think ultimately what that fitness is, it’s about discipline. And I think it’s Jaco Willink that says this, “Discipline equals freedom.”

Ben Grynol: It sounds like a Jaco statement.

Mike DiDonato: And I couldn’t agree more. And I tell this to everyone. All of us at Levels have done extensive studying about behavioral change. I don’t think people just stop doing what they’re doing because they wake up and don’t want to do it. It’s more so they stop doing what they’re doing because they don’t understand why they’re doing it, or the why is not strong enough to endure if that makes sense.

Ben Grynol: Yeah. That totally makes sense. When you start to think back about this mindset and this willingness to have discipline were there things that you did with your pops? Did you guys exercise together, or did you take some cues from him as far as I guess bringing things into your own daily routine?

Mike DiDonato: For more context, I think I said this at the top, my dad was definitely obsessed with his fitness. It was a discipline thing for him I believe as well. There weren’t missed days, maybe one or twice a year, but there was always something, and I think what it boiled down to was about just hard work, and I think we’ve all heard this is hard work will beat talent when talent doesn’t work hard, and I’ve just always … It was definitely in me when I was younger, but I think it’s as we mature and we grow it just comes down to what’s important to you, and for me, and it’s definitely compounded as I’ve continued to try and push more and more for whatever reason I don’t fully good about myself if I’m not doing everything I can to be the best version of myself, and that’s not just with physical fitness. That’s definitely with my work with levels which you know is very important to me, and I care about deeply, but it’s my family and my personal relationships as well so it just expands across your entire life.

Ben Grynol: That’s the mindset that when you’re putting your mind to something and you’re facing the task at end whether that’s work-related, whether that’s fitness-related, whether that is a Sisyphean endeavor of climbing some mountain it really extends into all aspects of life when you take that mindset. Part of it that’s interesting is in, gosh, that was a couple months ago, I’m losing track of time, we’ll call it March. Was it March that you did the 4x4x48?

Mike DiDonato: Yeah. March.

Ben Grynol: So, 4x4x48 you’ve got to walk everyone through that because that is not something that the average human does. That is an interesting endeavor, so what is this thing and where did you even learn about it?

Mike DiDonato: 4x4x48 you run four miles every four hours for 48 hours, and it was started by this person David Goggins. I should probably fill in the gaps a little bit here. David Goggins he’s a former Navy SEAL, ultra marathoner, held the pull-up record, and has done many, many things and more recently I think it was a few years ago he wrote a book called Can’t Hurt Me. He’s pretty intense for sure, but the message is pretty strong. A few people on the team have asked me about this and I think at times I can come across intense and I know for sure he can, and you would assume with those credentials it would be this macho go crazy book, but it’s a book about being vulnerable, and ultimately accountable to yourself.

Ben Grynol: The accountability mirror. That’s what he talks about all the time.

Mike DiDonato: Yep.

Ben Grynol: You’ve got to be able to look in the mirror and the only one that’s facing back is you.

Mike DiDonato: This is true, and I think that’s where mindset is so important. I think oftentimes, or I can at least say previously in my life, put limitations that didn’t necessarily need to be there, and I believe that nothing external can defeat the internal. Only the internal, meaning like it really, truly, is us versus us for lack of better words.

Ben Grynol: That’s exactly it, and that’s what you would’ve faced with the 4x4x48. It either sounds bonkers or it doesn’t sound that unachievable. So, if you tell somebody you run four miles every four hours for 48 hours it’s like, “Yeah, I can run four miles.” Let’s say somebody thinks they’re in relatively good shape, “Yeah, I can run four miles. That’s not hard. Every hour hours, no big deal.” Look at average pace. How long does four miles take somebody? Let’s say that a good four miles takes somebody 35 to 40 minutes.

Mike DiDonato: I feel like for the average, sure.

Ben Grynol: Something like that. So, you’re like, yeah, I can knock that out and I’ll get a couple hours rest and then I’ll go do another four. Your body starts to break down pretty quickly. The way that you fuel for it needs to change immensely. The amount of the lack thereof of sleep really has an impact on performance and so this is not an easy endeavor because 4x4x48 is a lot of miles over the course of two days. What you saw with it firsthand was you started to see some pretty interesting things when it came to metabolic health, like the way that you were fueling and fasting. You started to burn calories.

Ben Grynol: You’re pretty transparent with your data, sharing on social, but the way that your body reacted to this initiative was not the way that one would think.

Mike DiDonato: For sure. And adding some more context here, I do all of my workouts in a completely fasted state, whether that’s a long endurance run, a hit workout, crossfit, anything. It didn’t always used to be that way before Levels. I thought that you needed pre-workout fuel but that’s definitely, I can at least say personally, not the case.

Mike DiDonato: I was in California actually as well staying with my sister, brother-in-law, and my three little nieces who thought I was a little bit crazy, and I think the runs started at seven or 8:00pm Pacific is when it officially started. And after the first leg I thought it was a good idea to have a poke bowl with cauliflower rice. Not the best choice because when I-

Ben Grynol: It already sounds terrible.

Mike DiDonato: I don’t know what I was thinking. I clearly wasn’t. The only thing I actually was really thinking about going into this was the sleep deprivation. I wasn’t really concerned with the actually mileage, and I didn’t really think much about what to eat, what not to eat. So, I had a poke bowl and then I went back out at midnight and it was not a fun run. It was not a fun run at all. So, I made the decision after that the only thing that I would have the remaining 10 legs would be clean electrolytes with no sugar or anything and maybe some chia pudding, and maybe two eggs.

Mike DiDonato: And that ended up being much better fuel sources, so it was pretty interesting. And coming back thinking about the sleep deprivation. So, I was thinking about that because one of the the things personally I’ve tried to get better about over the last year is sleep and sleep quality. I definitely was more of the person to say whatever, I’ll sleep when I sleep, but I’ve gotten a lot better and then running into this race or this run, excuse me, I was like I don’t know how happy I’m going to be about not sleeping, and I ended up only sleeping it was like three and a half hours the entire weekend.

Mike DiDonato: But the big thing for me was definitely changing what I was eating, and thanks to Levels I personally know that I really don’t need much given the fat stores that we hold can burn a lot of calories. I think the two biggest challenges were that initial meal after the first leg and then just thinking about sleep, and also being around other people, like just going about their regular lives and being a little sleep deprived it was a little bit of an interesting experience, but it was definitely worthwhile.

Ben Grynol: Once you’re into it you’re knocking out basically two marathons in two days. That’s a lot of running. It doesn’t matter how you frame it it’s a lot of running. But it’s also different than I would imagine if somebody did a marathon, recovered as best as possible, and then got up the next day and did a marathon that their body would perform in a completely different way and the way that you would think about it, and the way that you would feel, and the way that you would feel rested would change given that you’re not constraining your recovery periods to very short windows because that goes against your circadian rhythm. You have to do everything to undo what feels natural, and that gets back to mindset as you’re pushing through something that doesn’t inherently feel easy.

Mike DiDonato: Yeah. 100%. It was far more of a mindset and mentally taxing than it ever was for the physical because if you think about it no one’s around. This isn’t a real race. There’s nobody getting up with you. You could just go ahead and sleep. Just go relax, or just sleep a few extra hours, and run next weekend.

Mike DiDonato: And those times, which is one of the reasons that I was interested, is because when I was hearing about it again I was like maybe I’ll do it, maybe I won’t, and I was like why wouldn’t I do it. And the times that it’s the hardest are always the most important at least in my experience just to keep going, that’s all. Just to keep going. And everything else will work out.

Ben Grynol: Goggins, I mean, you didn’t have anybody running beside you. Goggins isn’t going to come knocking on your door and be like, “Mike, what are you doing man? Get up. It’s time to run.” And I think that’s what makes it … That is back to your point about discipline, like it’s so easy to check out and be like, “Oh my gosh. I’m hurting. I’m out. I’m done. No one’s going to know. No big deal. I don’t even have to tell anybody that I didn’t finish it. I can just say that I tried.” Right?

Ben Grynol: That’s what gets really difficult is you start to dig really deep into your own mind and you think what am I learning from this? Why am I doing this thing? Was it harder or easier than you expected, or exactly what you thought it would be?

Mike DiDonato: It was a good test. And ultimately, at the end, at the last leg just always more so I decided to add two miles at the end to make it 50, and it was just this what if, lime why not? And to your point about going deep and thinking about sleep deprivation, or why am I doing this, and I think in the moment initially you’re consumed with that initial thought, whether that’s to stop, or just give up, or slow down, but if you just breathe, give it a minute, and step back, and just understand why am I feeling this way or why am I fearful, and ultimately just prolonging that initial thought because I think ultimately our mind it’s wired to what it thinks to protect us and put us away from fear and pain, but ultimately attacking those fears, at least for what I found, and what I think most people found, it’s the best way to grow and get better.

Ben Grynol: Yeah. It’s exposing yourself to things that aren’t easy is what makes you grow as a person without a doubt, and it’s good to put a person through these tests time and time again throughout our lives. If you rest on your laurels then you don’t ever grow by coasting. It doesn’t matter whether it’s having to do with fitness, whether it has to do with anything of personal interest. If you enjoy painting it’s extending yourself as hard as you can to paint or to do whatever it is, and that’s why it’s always good to do these little tests.

Ben Grynol: But when you start to think about you did this thing, you completed it, are you going to do it again is one obvious question, but how do you start to think now moving forward about your metabolic health and metabolic fitness.

Mike DiDonato: I don’t see why not do it again, but ultimately that’s in the past, and what is the next thing. There’s always something and I think we were messaging yesterday after we went for a run, and I really didn’t want to do it, like I really, really did not want to be out there, and I made some poor decisions the night before and it was quite hot, but like I said it comes back for me to always keep going. And there have been times in my life, or in my work career, that you feel like this is the end, or it’s the worst thing, but no matter what happens the storm or that time period eventually ends, and when it does end you want to make sure that you’re ready because typically opportunity comes.

Mike DiDonato: So, to answer your question is there’s always something to be done, and I know that doing these things whether it’s running, or exercising, or whatever it is it gives me that discipline and it helps me be the best version of myself, and that doesn’t mean the fastest or the strongest. That doesn’t really matter. That ability to endure and keep going when you don’t want to it’s just like another muscle ultimately.

Ben Grynol: My favorite thing Goggins always says is I don’t like running at all, but he does it, right? He said, “You think just because I run a lot you think I like running? I don’t like running. I despise running, but you get up every day, you lace up the shoes whether it’s raining, whether it’s snowing. It doesn’t matter what it’s doing. You lace up the shoes.”

Ben Grynol: And as soon as you start to put the foot down and pound the pavement it changes. It’s that muscle that you’re exercising over and over again.

Mike DiDonato: Yeah. And if you think about just beyond what he says and thinking about exercise, like life in general I think we all know it’s not sunshine and rainbows and there are plenty of things either at a macro level or at a micro level that I should say aren’t pleasant, but they are all part of the process, right? And it goes back to reasons and why’s, ultimately.

Ben Grynol: Yeah. So now, you’ve learned all these things not just through the 4x4x48 but I guess just your daily routine and what insight did you take away from that. I keep wanting to call it a race, but the little project you did, or whatever you want to call it, what insight did you take away about the way that you’re fueling now, the way that you think about diet and exercise, because I know that you typically do things fasted, but I remember you said something like assume we didn’t eat, and correct me because I’m going to mess this up, but it’s like we’ve got 60,000 calories, or some absurd number of calories circulating in our body at any one time without fuel. That’s a lot of energy to burn before we actually need fuel.

Ben Grynol: A, correct that statement I just made, and B, how are you thinking about this moving forward? Because there’s metabolic health and there’s metabolic fitness and I think that they’re related but they’re also nuanced, which we can dig into.

Mike DiDonato: That’s pretty true.

Ben Grynol: Did that statement get said correctly?

Mike DiDonato: Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Grynol: Was it right?

Mike DiDonato: Yeah. It’s just like what the two primary energy currencies are, glucose and fat, and average human I think it’s roughly 1,600 to 2,000 calories worth of stored glycogen that we can mobilize for fuel, and then there’s like 60,000 calories plus of fat that we can mobilize for fuel. Now, the body basically metabolizes fat for fuel less efficiently and at lower thresholds than glucose, but to your point it’s there, and beyond the genetic component that I’m after, like the longevity, this part does tend to be the most interesting.

Mike DiDonato: I thought you’re going to go to the gym, or you’re going to go for a run, you have to have that banana, or whatever it is, and the thing is you don’t. You really actually don’t. And it kind of does for me it is a mindset thing actually. Regardless of how quote unquote metabolically flexible you are, so metabolically flexible is how efficiently can we change between the two energy sources for fuel. Regardless of that, to do any workout fasted, especially if you’re not used to it, it can be brutal for lack of better words.

Mike DiDonato: And I personally do everything. I think I said this, but long endurance runs, I box, hit, crossfit, and the running does tend to be the one that is the most brutal for lack of better words if you think about it. A, I never liked to run when I was younger. I was a sprinter. I never wanted to run more than a mile, but to be out there fasted and running 15 plus miles with no water, no food, it’s more mindset than anything and I think understanding that I’m going to be fine. It might not feel great, but I’m going to be fine. And if I continue to do this over time with repetition the more recent research it suggests that we can become what we’re calling more fat adaptive so we can actually start using fat for fuel at higher thresholds if that makes sense.

Ben Grynol: Yeah. I think a lot of the fueling like this outlook on fueling has come from marketing, like really … I don’t want to use the word bad marketing but I guess good marketing because it’s convinced people of things that aren’t necessary, and so it’s good bad marketing because it’s bad because it might not be as true as we think, but it’s good because it’s changing people mind to do something which is drink this super large four liter protein shake before you go and do XYZ for exercise.

Ben Grynol: People have started to take on this mindset of I’m about to go on a nine mile run I better eat that Clif Bar, not even understanding what is in certain products, not to knock on Clif bars, but they’re just a lot of these we’ll call them energy products that have been marketed to people, have these supplements, drink these things, and some things are great and other things might have empty calories and empty meaning that sure if you’re going to eat something before you go exercise then you might be burning those calories in a different way than if you didn’t.

Ben Grynol: But empty meaning the calories that you’re getting from quote unquote energy bar that is full of corn syrup is a lot different than having a handful or nuts and a handful of fruit, like a very different energy source, right? And so, it’s really interesting how people have started to think and you’ve seen it firsthand where you realize that … Gabe Mendoza he talked about this all the time too you can have these fasted workouts that are still really high performance and they’re counterintuitive to everything that we’ve been told it the way to do it.

Ben Grynol: It’s just wild how much people have adopted and digested this information and these habits based on what they’ve been told to do.

Mike DiDonato: Yeah. That last part, really, really strong and as we all believe at Levels the right context matters and understanding what you’re doing and why you’re doing it and the goals. When we’re talking to maybe one of our pro athletes or an Olympian versus someone who’s maybe working out for an hour a day and has different goals than straight performance and winning a gold medal, or winning the Super Bowl, the feedback differs, right? Maybe if you’re out there trying to win the Super Bowl maybe you do need that chew or something. We don’t know.

Mike DiDonato: And to your point, I tell everyone I’m 33 years old and for 30 years of my life I was making nutrition, fitness, sleep decision all based off of nothing. People get a little squeamish when I say that but it’s true. I was relying on nutrition labels and what I read on the internet without having any context in how my body responds to a given item or a lifestyle behavior, and what we know is that we’re all very different. What’s right for Mike is not necessarily right for Ben.

Ben Grynol: Exactly, and that has to do with metabolic health, and metabolic fitness is this component of metabolic health which we’ll different into because … So, metabolic health is made up of, A, genetics, like the way that we react metabolically to certain things. B, we’ve got diet, we’ve got exercise, we’ve got sleep, we’ve got environmental considerations of stress, but that makes up your metabolic health. And so, all these inputs impact the way that you metabolize things day to day. You can have the same food two days in a row and you might’ve slept completely different, or you might have a different amount of cortisol running through your blood that’s causing you to metabolize things differently because you’re stressed and we can extrapolate into perpetuity.

Ben Grynol: The way you metabolize something two days apart can change because in between those two days you ate a carb heavy pizza and your glucose is still normalizing from the oscillation that occurs just from that. So, there’re all these impacts, there’re all these considerations, but metabolic fitness is nuance because the way that we’ve been talking about it internally and you refer to it all the time is … Before we hit record on this you were saying, “Yeah, man, I had spaghetti yesterday,” and you got an app in the Levels app. You did well as far as the way you metabolized it, and that’s what metabolic fitness is, is that you’ve now … Your body has become normalized in the sense of knowing the way that it will react to things that it might not metabolize as well if you didn’t have as heavy a fitness routine, or as regimented a sleep routine.

Ben Grynol: The same thing happened for you with avocado toast not that long ago where people are like he ate some toast and did pretty well with it. So, it’s like two people can eat that exact same meal and have completely different reactions to it because of insulin resistance and all these things. So, when you think about metabolic health versus metabolic fitness how do you separate the two and then how do you incorporate them into your life?

Mike DiDonato: I think how we’ve talked about metabolic fitness is more so wanting people to understand that for a lot of us these things aren’t necessarily predestined, or predetermined and they just happen to us. When we think about a lot of things, two examples, we could talk about weight gain and we can talk about chronic disease or metabolic dysfunction. They don’t typically, typically, happen overnight. They happen over time.

Mike DiDonato: And I think one of the reasons, or how we talk about metabolic fitness, is we all start at different places, but similar to physical fitness with repetition and discipline and we can get from where we are today to where we want to be. It’s ultimately that daily process. And it goes back to what we’re trying to do is … I think Sam and I had a conversation about this, and he’s like, “You know, you can’t make someone change. You can hopefully empower them and make them want to change.” It’s a subtle difference but it’s a very big difference.

Mike DiDonato: And empowering people with this current I guess insight into where they are today and how their current lifestyle choices are affecting them internally. First, you have to understand, and see this is what’s happening, this is how I’m responding to all of these inputs, and then the next part in that is the education piece, giving them the tools and the understanding to ultimately if they want to, whatever that goal is, whether that’s weight loss, or for many of our members longevity, like expanding not just your lifespan but your health span too.

Mike DiDonato: And personally, I do tend to be, like you mentioned someone said he ate a piece of toast, I tend to be very disciplined with this, and I think it would just be a lot of what’s driving that. It’s definitely not an aesthetic thing. It’s the why is. I’m trying to do everything in my power to make sure that I live longer than another 15 years, and yeah, that’s what’s really important, but the really exciting thing is it doesn’t have to be all or nothing.

Mike DiDonato: We used to tell people it’s not only what you eat. It’s when you eat these things and it’s how you eat these things, and then there’s the big external levers to pull on, which you’ve alluded to, which are sleep, stress, and exercise, which can significantly effect our glycemic responses. I give people the example all the time where berries are one of my favorite things, but if I eat them in a normal setting my glucose goes to Mars with Elon Musk, so I don’t have them in a regular setting, but that doesn’t mean that I’ve just eliminated these things from my diet. Through a lot of trial and error I found that post-workout, especially post intense workouts or long runs a lot of typically have a higher insulin sensitivity, so insulin takes the excess glucose from the blood and gets to our cells.

Mike DiDonato: During these post-workout events, because we have this enhanced insulin sensitivity I can eat a lot of berries actually, experience how you eat it, if it’s paired well with a good protein source and fiber, and some healthy fats, then I can definitely do it really well. And then, yesterday you mentioned that I had spaghetti. That was the first time I had that in quite a while. I went for a pretty long run yesterday and then I paired that spaghetti pretty well. I had a lot of fiber, a lot of protein, and some healthy fats before, and it was delicious and I felt fine, and I slept perfectly.

Ben Grynol: Your Italian family’s going to disown you Mike DiDonato.

Mike DiDonato: Yeah. It was crabs and spaghetti. If you know, you know.

Ben Grynol: I don’t know. I have not had crabs and spaghetti before.

Mike DiDonato: But yeah, the metabolic fitness I want people to understand that for a lot of us, for the majority, these things they’re in our control, and again it’s not going to change overnight but over time and with this repetition we can get from where we are today to where we want to be.

Ben Grynol: Where did you learn to eat crabs and spaghetti?

Mike DiDonato: Dude. It’s a thing where … I don’t know if it’s a northeast thing. We call it gravy. I’m sure you probably know this by now. I call it gravy. And so, basically, the crabs cook in the gravy all day and you add some spice to it, and then you take the crabs out, you eat them separately.

Ben Grynol: You’re talking like red sauce.

Mike DiDonato: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Red sauce. I’m not talking brown gravy. I’m talking red sauce. So, you cook the crabs in there. It’s a big thing down at the beach when my sister and everyone’s in town. One of the neighbors did it, and it was pretty delicious.