Metabolism Mentor (Austin McGuffie & Tom Griffin)

Inspiring others to be healthy can take many forms. For personal trainer turned content-creator Austin McGuffie, it means spreading fitness knowledge in easy-to-understand ways through his program Metabolism Mentor. In this episode, Austin sits down with Levels Head of Partnerships, Tom Griffin, to discuss his personal journey with metabolic health and how he works to communicate complex nutrition and fitness concepts to his audience.

9:49 – An introduction to insulin resistance

As a personal trainer, Austin encountered clients when weren’t seeing results from exercise. This led him to discover the role of metabolism.

I had a couple of clients who I’d been helping for an extended period of time and they did not see the results that they needed to. I think at the time that made me a bad trainer, but it propelled me into learning more about metabolism. One of them was battling PCOS, and another was just generally insulin resistant, triglycerides through the roof, HDLO. The exercise program and the diet that I had prescribed to each of them, they just weren’t working. It didn’t just boil down to what they were eating. It was the habits that they had and the relationships that they had with food. That led me on a path to really understanding metabolism and what’s going on. The first person to really introduce me to insulin resistance was Ben Bikman. That’s where I first got into it. I read his book, which was very approachable and could just hear his voice while reading the pages, which made it a lot easier to understand the content. That’s where I started to dive into insulin resistance because I knew that I had to equip myself with more tools to really be able to help people push through those barriers and get to the next level.

16:15 – You can’t have health without proper nutrition

As a child, Austin was exercising constantly but also eating incredibly unhealthy foods. His doctor realized that his bloodwork was at unhealthy levels.

I had this identity as an athlete. I was like, “Come on. Look at me. What are you talking about? I just got back from three hours of basketball practice,” blah, blah, blah, blah. He was trying to figure it out and he was going through it. He’s like, “So you exercise a lot.” He’s like, “Walk me through your diet.” Eventually, long story short, he was like, “What have you eaten in the last 24 hours?” I was like, “Well, I worked today. I work at a swim club, like snack shed.” He was like, “Wait, wait. Slow down, slow down. What did you have while you were working?” I literally had that day 10 ice cream snacks, 10. I’m talking chip witch, chocolate éclair, drumstick. Everything under the sun. The doctor’s just eyes were wide open. He was like, “You do this regularly?” I was like, “Yeah, but I’m skinny.” That was the first moment for me. It’s not to say that I changed everything at that age, but it blew my mind.

17:46 – Skinny does not equal healthy

It’s becoming increasingly clear that body size is not necessarily an indication of metabolic health.

Not only is it that skinny people can be metabolically unhealthy, but now we’re seeing that people who are obese or have a BMI in that range can still be metabolically healthy. It’s important to lift up the hood, not to judge a book by its cover where you have two guys like us who are thin and athletic, whose lifespans were decreasing for every ice cream sandwich that we ate. Then you’ve got other people who, on the outside looking in, you might assume that they’re unhealthy when all their levels are completely fine. That’s what I love so much about just biohacking and more specifically measuring blood glucose, because it’s the only way to close the feedback loop and to really figure out what’s going on. There’s no guessing game involved. It’s like, what’s going on with my body? Then you can take actionable steps from there to get yourself where you need to be.

19:12 – Make content easy to understand

Austin’s #1 goal is to avoid jargon and complexity in favor of engaging information that the average individual can understand and retain.

Whenever I create a piece of content, my number one goal is I think about who’s watching this. I create my content for people who are not in the biohacking space. When I turn the camera on, I get my lighting right. Going over some of the topics that I’m discussing, the prevalent thought in my mind is how can I make this as easy to understand as possible? That’s the approach I take with all of my content instead of sitting there and throwing out all the big words, and looking professional with a white coat and a whiteboard and writing stuff down and doing diagrams. That’s a lot of the content that you see on Instagram and YouTube when you’re searching for metabolism stuff. It’s all very professional and well delivered. It’s all very accurate, but I don’t think that the average person is sitting through that stuff and watching it. For a topic that’s so important and can change people’s lives if they grasp it, I think it’s crucial to deliver it in a way that people can actually digest it and implement it in their lives.

21:20 – A sense of humor always helps

Austin aims to entertain as well as educate his viewers for maximum impact.

Naturally, I’m just the most laid-back person. I’m super chill. I have several conversations off of the internet about metabolism. When I’m talking to somebody one-on-one, it’s still nonstop jokes, nonstop laughter. It’s very interesting. It’s not serious. I’m not condemning people for their choices, but it’s just like, “Hey, this is what it is.” I just try to deliver it in the most, I guess, charismatic way possible. I try to take that same energy into the content that I create. I think the biggest thing for me is the humor. People will stick around for a video if it’s funny. I always try to incorporate just comedic elements in each of my videos because, well, it makes me laugh. If it makes me laugh, it might make other people laugh. They’ll stick around for the jokes and they’ll get some really good information that goes along with it.

24:31 – The pressure to be perfect

In a space like nutrition, it’s easy to worry about getting everything exactly right. But the most important thing is that you’re doing your best and helping people.

The more knowledge you have the more burdens you feel about presenting the knowledge in the most accurate way. Especially in the nutrition space, because you have people who they’ll kill you if you say something wrong. I don’t know, man. They’ll put you on blast. They’ll try to humiliate you. It’s not that what you’re saying is incorrect. It’s just that they have a different ideology and a different approach to nutrition. That hangs me up a lot. The only thing, well, two things, first is talking to my wife. She’s a really big buffer for me in between what I know and how I present that information by just encouraging me to just say what I know. Then the second thing is 99% of the people that are watching this don’t know more about this than I do. I’m stressing out about the 1% of people who are going to be like, “Hmm, what is that? You said that blood glucose spikes are linked to diabetes, but here’s a paper that says” … It’s like, you know what? You’re trying to help people too, but I’m not going to argue with you about how to help people. Let’s just help people.

34:11 – The power of food modification

Sometimes, restricting your favorite foods entirely is not the answer.

I think the biggest thing that helps is to take somebody from where they already are and show them how to make what they’re eating healthier for them. I think one of the biggest things, especially with diet culture, is people restrict themselves from the food that they’re eating when they could really just make some modifications to make it metabolically healthy. That’s what I try to accomplish with each of my videos that I post. None of the videos that I post are to condemn people for eating those things. Oatmeal, for example, even within the Levels community, I communicate with other Levels users who have eaten oatmeal. Every single person is like, “Oh, well, oatmeal spiked my glucose, so I don’t eat it anymore.” If we take that approach to everyone, I find that people feel overwhelmed. They don’t want to make any changes because it’s just too overwhelming. Then they quit. Then you just start eating whatever, but if you take somebody, what they’re currently eating, and help them to make a small modification to it, add a little bit more fat fiber or protein, then you can show them that pursuing metabolic health is not as complicated as it seems, as long as you meet them where they are.

40:16 – Meet people where they are

Austin likens the need for simplicity to a language barrier. You need your information to be digestible – no pun intended.

If we don’t meet people where they are with how they understand certain concepts then, again, you’re unable to help them. It’s almost like having a language barrier. If I’m trying to communicate with someone who only speaks Spanish and I’m speaking to them in English and I fully expect them to understand, they’re going to walk away from that conversation with zero value. That’s really the origin of why I create content the way that I do. It’s who’s watching this, who do I want to watch this, and is what I’m saying going to be digestible? Would the me from three years ago be able to understand what the me from right now is saying? If the answer is no, then I can’t put it out.

44:56 – How to raise healthy kids

Austin says that if you want your kids to eat healthy, you need to stock your house with healthy food and educate them.

It is really tough to build healthy habits for kids who are hellbent on eating in the ways that are not optimal for the health. It really boils down, I think, to what food you have in the house and how do you eat as a parent? How are they seeing you treat your body? With the food that we have in the house, I tell my kids all the time, it’s like, “Are you hungry? Do you see anything that you want?” If their answer is no, it’s like, “Well, you’re not going to starve, so what are you going to eat? What do we have, available options, in this house?” I go down the list with them. It’s like, “Well, if you don’t want this, do you want this? If you don’t want this, do you want this?” Eventually we settle on something, but it is just having healthy options in your house. Of course, that’s such a big hurdle for parents because, shoot, even myself a few years ago, there were several food options here that may not have been optimal for my children’s health. It boils down to education first for parents. Then once you know, it’s keeping good food in your house and then offering them options and giving them agency over what they’re putting in their body.

50:16 – Remove the ego from nutrition

If technology like Levels has taught us anything, it’s that nutrition is personalized and there are new discoveries around every corner.

If I can wave a magic wand, I think that I would wave a magic wand for people to remove their ego when it comes to nutrition and exercise and all things related to health. I think most times, especially in the nutrition community, you’re looking at keto, carnivore, low carb, calories in versus calories out, insulin carbohydrate model. A good percent of that is based on the data that’s presented, but then half of that is people and their ego and not being willing to depart from previously held ideas. I think that sets back a lot of progress that we could be making in helping people. I think that’s one of the reasons why I’m so supportive of what you guys are doing because you guys aren’t out here pedaling anything except get to know your body and make changes based on the data that you’re being presented with. Of course, you guys have developed best practices. You’ve determined some things that work best based on the feedback of the people in your community. If I could just wave a magic wand and make one change, it would be no more ego. Let’s all sit down at the table and let’s figure out how to get this world on the right track when it comes to our health.

Austin McGuffie (00:06):

The prevalent thought in my mind is how can I make this as easy to understand as possible? That’s the approach I take with all of my content. Instead of sitting there and throwing out all the big words and looking professional with a white coat and a whiteboard and writing stuff down and doing diagrams, that’s a lot of the content that you see on Instagram and YouTube when you’re searching for metabolism stuff. It’s all very professional and well delivered. It’s all very accurate, but I don’t think that the average person is sitting through that stuff and watching it. For a topic that’s so important and can change people’s lives if they grasp it, I think it’s crucial to deliver it in a way that people can actually digest it and implement it in their lives.

Ben Grynol (01:03):

I’m Ben Grynol, part of the early startup team here at Levels. We’re building tech that helps people to understand their metabolic health and this is your front row seat to everything we do. This is a whole new level. Everyone’s got a different reason why they do what they do. For some people, they’ve got an innate connection to metabolic health. For others, they feel that it is their duty, maybe their moral obligation, to spread awareness for what is deemed one of the largest epidemics in the world. The more information that’s out there the more awareness there is, the better off everybody will be. For Austin McGuffie, well, Austin goes by the Metabolism Mentor. He’s very much invested in the space of metabolic health. He’s a content creator and he focuses on making videos to engage people in everything pertaining to metabolic health.

Ben Grynol (02:07):

He takes a little bit different angle and he always tries to hack his own metabolism to see what happens. He’s basically running experiments on himself and saying, “Hey, look what happened when I consumed this thing and here was my metabolic response.” He always tries to find ways to educate everyone based on his outcomes. Following that, he positions his insight on this was my response and everyone’s going to have a different response. Well, Austin sat down with Tom Griffin, head of partnerships at Levels. The two of them talked about what it means to create content about metabolic health. Not only is he a content creator, but somebody who is invested in the space of metabolic health. It was a really meaningful conversation, and here’s where they kick things off.

Tom Griffin (02:57):

I just started reading this book. I’m only 50 pages in, but I’m really staring at it right now so I’m going to mention it. It’s called Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals. Basically, 4,000 weeks is the amount of time the average person has while they’re alive. Essentially, the book talks about how to think about proper prioritization given the finite amount of time that we have, but the early chapters are essentially about how there’s this trap of efficiency where you feel like you’re always just about to check everything off the to-do list. If you just optimize a little bit more and get a little bit more productive and find one more hour in the morning or in the day, then it’ll solve all your problems. The author’s point, of course, is that you never arrive at that point. Rather than just spending the next 40 years trying to optimize more and more and get faster and faster and faster at email, you might just exhale and realize, I’m going to be in this position forever. I may as well try to enjoy the ride versus being stressed the entire time.

Austin McGuffie (04:07):

Absolutely. Shoot, just the title of the book has me thinking, wait a minute. 4,000 a week? That’s it?

Tom Griffin (04:14):

Exactly. Exactly.

Austin McGuffie (04:16):

I just lost four weeks so fast. It’s already gone.

Tom Griffin (04:20):

If someone were to be like, “Oh, you’ve got a couple hundred thousand weeks,” you might be like, “Sure. That sounds right.” You have no idea, but when you put it in that context, 4,000 weeks, you’re like, “That’s pretty finite.” How many do you have left 20,000? 2,000, or whatever it might be.

Austin McGuffie (04:36):

You never know. Just the title itself nails the point home for that book. It’s like, you know what? I’m continuously going to be chasing optimal productivity. Let me not let it stress me out. I think one of the cool things is, at least what I found in my journey of trying to optimize my time best is, when I set my attention on doing something, even when I’m not actively going crazy or as productive as I think I could be, if I just look back over the past six to 12 months I can see a stark difference between how I used to operate and how I operate now. Even though it’s not where I need to be, the amount of growth that I’ve experienced, just from being intentional about wanting to optimize my time without stressing out about it, you find yourself in a better place than you used to be.

Tom Griffin (05:24):

100%. That could even be something interesting to dive into during the chat. I think you initially reached out to us through probably social media, my guess is Instagram, and just said, “Hey, listen. This is who I am. This is what I’m up to. A big fan.” Then you had created a video that you had sent over to us and basically said, “Check this out. This is who I am. This is what I’m up to.” I think it really stuck out to us as, one, being a great piece of content, you’re a phenomenal communicator and, two, taking a very unique approach to trying to communicate some of these ideas maybe to an audience that isn’t normally reading the books that people in this community are reading or listening to the podcast that people are listening. That’s why we knew immediately. We were like, “We got to build a relationship with this guy.”

Austin McGuffie (06:13):

I was so excited about that. Actually, Tom, what happened was … It’s so cool that we’ve been using the same thread from my first email to you guys. I look at it often, every time I get an email, but it goes back all the way to December 2020.

Tom Griffin (06:30):

Oh, does it really?

Austin McGuffie (06:31):

Yeah. That’s when I first reached out, I think it was via email. I think you sent me to your intern, man. It was like, “Yeah, don’t know who this guy is.” No, I got in touch with Braden, I think. Braden. We started talking a little bit and just trying to get some early access. Then several months later I finally got my hands on a sensor. That’s when I started to play around with the idea of how do I make this information that I’ve learned from this relevant to people, the community that I’m trying to serve? One of the popular things going on at the time was people, well, people consume alcohol quite often, but for some reason Casamigos, it’s just been a trending drink that might have been popular in mainstream America, but certainly within the African-American community. Everybody’s drinking, so I’m like, I wonder if people would be interested to know how this impacts their blood glucose? That was really the start of Metabolism Mentor and the start of the brand, the start of the YouTube videos. That was the first one that you guys saw, which ended up getting your attention. It just flourished into this beautiful relationship, which I’m extremely grateful for. I got your guys’ attention by drinking eight shots of alcohol. That was it.

Tom Griffin (07:53):

Right, which if I did that experiment, I would’ve just woken up the next morning and not know what happened. I think you’re a bigger guy than I am with a little bit more muscle, so you’re able to.

Austin McGuffie (08:04):

I was able to handle it better.

Tom Griffin (08:05):

Somehow record a coherent video while you did it, but super interesting. I guess just taking a quick step back to introduce yourself, who is Austin McGuffie and why do you go behind Metabolism Mentor?

Austin McGuffie (08:21):

I’m just your average guy, for the most part, who wants to be healthy. I think that’s where it all starts, but I’m a father, a husband. I was a personal trainer for five years before really diving into blood glucose, really four years. I personally trained for five years and that’s where I developed a passion for helping people get healthier. I’ve had several clients, obviously there was your typical Instagram influencer, I call them fit-fluencers, your typical fit-fluencer. They’re posting transformation pictures and helping people lose weight and feel better about themselves, which is awesome and a necessary trade, but I was always seeking something deeper within that industry. It was more than building a body. It got really complicated when people wanted to build bigger butts. Of course, I’m married. My wife was like, “I don’t think you should be helping these women get bigger butts.”

Tom Griffin (09:28):

That’s hilarious.

Austin McGuffie (09:28):

I’m like, maybe I can help them with their blood glucose instead.

Tom Griffin (09:34):

That’s the origin story of Metabolism Mentor.

Austin McGuffie (09:36):

That’s it. My wife didn’t want me helping people get bigger butts. No, but on a serious note … No, that was really a thing, but on a more serious note I just knew that there was more to it. I had a couple of clients who I’d been helping for an extended period of time and they did not see the results that they needed to. I think at the time that made me a bad trainer, but it propelled me into learning more about metabolism. One of them was battling PCOS, and another was just generally insulin resistant, triglycerides through the roof, HDLO. The exercise program and the diet that I had prescribed to each of them, they just weren’t working. It didn’t just boil down to what they were eating. It was the habits that they had and the relationships that they had with food.

Austin McGuffie (10:30):

That led me on a path to really understanding metabolism and what’s going on. The first person to really introduce me to insulin resistance was Ben Bikman. That’s where I first got into it. I read his book, which was very approachable and could just hear his voice while reading the pages, which made it a lot easier to understand the content. That’s where I started to dive into insulin resistance because I knew that I had to equip myself with more tools to really be able to help people push through those barriers and get to the next level. That’s where it all started. Then from listening to Ben Bikman, it was probably on a podcast where I heard about Levels. Then that’s when I started to bug you guys about seeing if you guys had any partnership opportunities available and wanted to get some content out.

Tom Griffin (11:25):

Got it. Got it, makes sense. I’m curious, in terms of your own personal story and personal relationship with health which, frankly, I think is particularly important because, to call a spade a spade, I think a lot of the early adopters in the health tech community, or maybe more specifically the biohacker community come from a very similar background. I think to paint with a very broad brushstroke, someone who grew up in, say, San Francisco and their parents worked at Google and everyone around them since they were five years old was obsessed with health optimization, I think that story is a little less interesting to me and maybe our company than someone who wasn’t always surrounded by that environment, and then became over time somehow convinced that not only health is important, but also it’s worth taking a deeper dive beyond just having big muscles. When did some of this click for you? Maybe it was just through your clients, but when did you move from exercise is important, being jacked is important, to long term health is important? Just walk us through that journey.

Austin McGuffie (12:36):

It started with me. Actually, generally I used to be a really small guy, just thin. I was always getting sick. I was getting sick often. I think at one point I was actually pre-diabetic, which I might have had something to eat at 11:00 and then I had my fasting blood glucose the next morning. It might have been crazy, but I wasn’t generally healthy. There was a point in my career where I started a business. It was an indoor trampoline park, similar to Sky Zone. We raised a whole bunch of money, we had investors involved. The business failed. As an entrepreneur, someone who identified as an entrepreneur, when I failed it was like, well, that’s a pretty big part of my identity that’s gone now. I went through this journey of just figuring out who I am. I was praying, meditating. One of the things that came to me was just go to the gym and be consistent with that. Then once you figure that out, you can start to rebuild who you think you are.

Austin McGuffie (13:41):

That’s what I did. At that point, it was all about the muscles. I was trying to get jacked. I’m taking all the supplements. I’m eating all the crap, just trying to eat in the calorie surplus, not caring anything about micronutrients or blood glucose. I got big, but I didn’t always feel good. That was the first thing for me where it was like, there’s got to be more to this than having big muscles and looking good without a shirt. Then when I started to train other people, I was training them because they wanted to look like me. When I was successful with that and then I became unsuccessful because I didn’t know enough about the body, that’s when I started to dig deep into metabolism and really understanding what’s going on at a cellular level to be able to communicate this in a way where other people will actually be able to understand it.

Tom Griffin (14:40):

That makes a lot of sense. I think once you’re on the other side of this knowledge, if you will, it can seem very obvious and intuitive that your physical appearance does not necessarily equate to what’s happening inside of your body physiologically at a cellular level.

Austin McGuffie (15:06):

Not at all.

Tom Griffin (15:07):

It’s really interesting because, again, once you understand this stuff you think everyone must know that. I’m smiling to myself thinking about for me, the moment was I was actually at the doctor. I must have been 11 years old. I was playing travel basketball, soccer, practices three times a day and was very skinny and also would eat an inordinate amount of calories every day. I, at the time, was actually working at a snack shed at a swim club, a local pool.

Austin McGuffie (15:42):

You were snacking all day.

Tom Griffin (15:45):

You have no idea, man. I went for an annual physical with my mom and my brother. Then I went back for a checkup after they had done blood work. The doctor came out and they were like, “Hey, we want to sit down with you and your parents and talk about a few things.” The doctor basically was like … All of my levels, whatever they were measuring, half of them were way off.

Austin McGuffie (16:08):

At 11 years old?

Tom Griffin (16:10):

Yeah. It was high blood pressure, high cholesterol, just things that shouldn’t have been off. Especially, I had this identity as an athlete. I was like, “Come on. Look at me. What are you talking about? I just got back from three hours of basketball practice,” blah, blah, blah, blah. He was trying to figure it out and he was going through it. He’s like, “So you exercise a lot.” He’s like, “Walk me through your diet.” Eventually, long story short, he was like, “What have you eaten in the last 24 hours?” I was like, “Well, I worked today. I work at a swim club, like snack shed.” He was like, “Wait, wait. Slow down, slow down. What did you have while you were working?” I literally had that day 10 ice cream snacks, 10. I’m talking chip witch, chocolate éclair, drumstick. Everything under the sun. The doctor’s just eyes were wide open. He was like, “You do this regularly?” I was like, “Yeah, but I’m skinny.” That was the first moment for me. It’s not to say that I changed everything at that age.

Austin McGuffie (17:07):

I’m sure you didn’t.

Tom Griffin (17:08):

No, I definitely didn’t, but it blew my mind. I remember going home with my parents and I was like, “But, if I’m good at basketball and I’m skinny, aren’t I necessarily healthy?” They’re like, “No, no, no. Inside of your blood, inside of your body, the doctor says it’s not going so well.”

Austin McGuffie (17:28):

That’s crazy. Well, first of all, that’s awesome that you had a doctor that asked you about what you’re eating, what you ate the past 24 hours.

Tom Griffin (17:36):

That’s a good point.

Austin McGuffie (17:39):

We know how that’s not a common question oftentimes when people visit the doctor. Then second, not only is it that skinny people can be metabolically unhealthy, but now we’re seeing that people who are obese or have a BMI in that range can still be metabolically healthy. It’s important to lift up the hood, not to judge a book by its cover where you have two guys like us who are thin and athletic, whose lifespans were decreasing for every ice cream sandwich that we ate. Then you’ve got other people who, on the outside looking in, you might assume that they’re unhealthy when all their levels are completely fine. That’s what I love so much about just biohacking and more specifically measuring blood glucose, because it’s the only way to close the feedback loop and to really figure out what’s going on. There’s no guessing game involved. It’s like, what’s going on with my body? Then you can take actionable steps from there to get yourself where you need to be.

Tom Griffin (18:46):

100%. We mentioned that you’re a content creator, you’ve got a YouTube channel, couple other platforms where you’re regularly posting content. I’d love to just hear, high level, how do you think about your goals with the content that you’re creating and your approach to this space? Because, again, I think it’s somewhat unique among a lot of the people that are out there.

Austin McGuffie (19:12):

Whenever I create a piece of content, my number one goal is I think about who’s watching this. I create my content for people who are not in the biohacking space. When I turn the camera on, I get my lighting right. Going over some of the topics that I’m discussing, the prevalent thought in my mind is how can I make this as easy to understand as possible? That’s the approach I take with all of my content instead of sitting there and throwing out all the big words, and looking professional with a white coat and a whiteboard and writing stuff down and doing diagrams. That’s a lot of the content that you see on Instagram and YouTube when you’re searching for metabolism stuff. It’s all very professional and well delivered. It’s all very accurate, but I don’t think that the average person is sitting through that stuff and watching it. For a topic that’s so important and can change people’s lives if they grasp it, I think it’s crucial to deliver it in a way that people can actually digest it and implement it in their lives.

Tom Griffin (20:25):

It’s so important. It’s so difficult to do, frankly, because the curse of knowledge, once you understand this stuff at a deeper and deeper level it can get harder and harder to communicate it in a simple way. Maybe a tricky question for you, but what is a little bit of that process when you think, how can I communicate this to this particular audience? We mentioned the Casamigos example earlier. That’s maybe an obvious one where you’re like, rather than doing a different type of experiment, let me do one that is going to maybe relate to people and is timely or relevant. What are some of the questions that you’re asking yourself when figuring out how you can communicate something effectively?

Austin McGuffie (21:14):

Honestly, I think that the biggest thing is just trying to be myself. Naturally, I’m just the most laid back person. I’m super chill. I have several conversations off of the internet about metabolism. When I’m talking to somebody one-on-one, it’s still nonstop jokes, nonstop laughter. It’s very interesting. It’s not serious. I’m not condemning people for their choices, but it’s just like, “Hey, this is what it is.” I just try to deliver it in the most, I guess, charismatic way possible. I try to take that same energy into the content that I create. I think the biggest thing for me is the humor. People will stick around for a video if it’s funny. I always try to incorporate just comedic elements in each of my videos because, well, it makes me laugh. If it makes me laugh, it might make other people laugh. They’ll stick around for the jokes and they’ll get some really good information that goes along with it.

Tom Griffin (22:21):

I think humor is an unbelievable tool to use in just any difficult conversations. We could call this a difficult conversation when you’re explaining something that’s very complex like nutrition, but frankly also nutrition itself is a very polarizing and inflammatory topic. It can be at a similar scale to something like politics, but if you take politics or even a relationship with someone, humor is a really good lever to pull on. I think you do an awesome job of that.

Austin McGuffie (22:56):

Thank you.

Tom Griffin (22:57):

I’m curious, going back to trying to simplify things and make them accessible, my sense, and this is from my own personal experience, is that one of the tensions that people feel is once they understand something at a very deep level they then feel like they won’t be fully accurate or technically accurate enough if they don’t communicate it at the most granular level. This is what I found when I was actually getting up to speed on this whole space. Frankly, I won’t call out any names or scientists or doctors out there, but I’d get really frustrated because they’d be doing an intro podcast and within two minutes they’re talking about the electron transporter chain and cell membranes and ATP. I’m just sitting there like, “Yo, I will never understand what you’re talking about at all. I’m really invested in this space and I have no clue what you’re talking about.” If someone simply were to say, “Carbs make you fat.” Then they’re like, “Well, that’s not nuanced enough or maybe accurate.” They end up getting to the electron transporter chain just because they think that they need to in order to sound correct and technically accurate. I’m curious, do you feel that tension when you’re creating content?

Austin McGuffie (24:18):

Absolutely. If I’m being completely honest with you, I think that is a very big source of stress for me. Have you heard of imposter syndrome?

Tom Griffin (24:28):

Oh, yeah.

Austin McGuffie (24:30):

Obviously, like you said, the more knowledge you have the more burdens you feel about presenting the knowledge in the most accurate way. Especially in the nutrition space, because you have people who they’ll kill you if you say something wrong. I don’t know, man. They’ll put you on blast. They’ll try to humiliate you. It’s not that what you’re saying is incorrect. It’s just that they have a different ideology and a different approach to nutrition. That hangs me up a lot. The only thing, well, two things, first is talking to my wife. She’s a really big buffer for me in between what I know and how I present that information by just encouraging me to just say what I know. Then the second thing is 99% of the people that are watching this don’t know more about this than I do. I’m stressing out about the 1% of people who are going to be like, “Hmm, what is that? You said that blood glucose spikes are linked to diabetes, but here’s a paper that says” … It’s like, you know what? You’re trying to help people too, but I’m not going to argue with you about how to help people. Let’s just help people. You know what I’m saying?

Tom Griffin (25:52):

You’re even like, “Oh, I wonder if Ben Bikman is going to see this. He might think that there’s more nuance to it than this,” which obviously there always is going to be more nuance to it.

Austin McGuffie (26:04):

There’s nuance for nuance. It’s unlimited levels of nuance. I think that another component to that is being humble enough to put out information that you might go back and rethink. I have posts dating back to last year, I probably should archive them, but there’s some information in there that I look at now. I’m like, you know what? I didn’t present that in the most accurate way, but that’s okay. That’s a representation of where my knowledge was at that time. You’ve got to have enough humility to admit that there’s going to always be levels of growth and gaps in your knowledge. I don’t think anybody ever knows 100% enough to feel comfortable presenting information on such a nuanced topic.

Tom Griffin (26:55):

We need to change some of the norms around just communicating online because otherwise, no one wants to say anything ever about anything. If you’re wrong in any way, or even just people disagree with you in any way, it can be seen as a real liability for your goals. Then you end up just saying, “It’s better to just not maybe post at all.”

Austin McGuffie (27:20):

That happens, man. Honestly, if there is ever a period of time in the future where there are no posts on my YouTube or Instagram, it’s probably because I’m overthinking something about whether or not I have enough information to present this topic. That’s a whole podcast topic on its own, honestly.

Tom Griffin (27:40):

We won’t go down that rabbit hole right now, but I do think it’s interesting because some of what we’re talking about around the challenges of communicating complicated topics extends to just communication generally and difficult conversations generally. Something that I thought about earlier when you were talking about just that struggle between the technically accurate and comprehensive explanation and simplifying things, I don’t know where I read this or heard this, but I remember at some point early on I had heard that the definition of good teaching or good communication is remembering what it’s like to not know something. I think about that all the time because one of my biggest pet peeves is when someone’s communicating to you, either one-on-one or it’s a podcast or it’s a book, and it’s just so obvious that they’re assuming that you know and understand so many things that you have no reason to know and understand. A dumb example of this, at Levels we have a no acronyms rule. We just don’t allow anybody internally, whether writing documents or communicating, to use acronyms.

Austin McGuffie (29:01):

Spell it out.

Tom Griffin (29:02):

Acronyms are a good example because it’s like, I don’t know, you’re flexing a little bit. You’re like, “I know a lot of things and I know a lot of acronyms and I’m just going to assume you guys all must know them too.” If you don’t know it you feel dumb, but I think this certainly extends to the health space.

Austin McGuffie (29:20):

Even in books, I know that you guys had a book club where you guys read Metabolical by Robert Lester. I’m still reading that book, trying to dive through it. Of course, there are all kinds of acronyms in there. I forget where it was first mentioned. It might be on page 60 and it’s just, wait, what does that mean again? I understand how difficult it could be. Not just in books, obviously it’s mentioned earlier on so you have a point of reference, but that’s where educating, especially online, where it’s important to break stuff down and over-explain because when you use acronyms, for example, in your point of communication, not only is that person not understanding what you’re saying, but they’re also probably too embarrassed to ask. When that happens, they neglect the knowledge altogether. Then the communication, it was basically for nothing.

Tom Griffin (30:19):

I couldn’t agree more. I’m curious, one, how many of your friends and/or family or people that you’re hanging out with down in … You’re in Georgia, right?

Austin McGuffie (30:31):

Uh-huh (affirmative).

Tom Griffin (30:32):

Are interested in this stuff? Part two of that question is, do you feel attention around how frequently you’re you bringing this stuff up? I can speak from my perspective. I was out to dinner this past weekend in New York with six friends. The first thing that someone says when we sit down is, “Tom, you better shut the hell up during this dinner. We don’t want to hear about glucose and insulin. We’re going to just enjoy our pizza.” What is it like for you down there in Georgia?

Austin McGuffie (31:04):

Oh, that’s so relatable for me. Not too many of my friends are into this, family as well. I probably have one friend, zero family members. It’s interesting because I think just recently my family has come to the terms Austin is that guy when it comes to health and nutrition, but I’m so intentional about not saying anything. First of all, I’m not a stickler for food myself. I indulge quite often, but still as soon as I walk in the house I’ll have, I don’t know, a Body Armor drink. “Oh, Austin, isn’t there a lot of sugar in there? Are you sure you’re supposed to be drinking that?” Or people whispering to each other, “Can you get me the Casamigos?” It’s okay. You don’t have to keep it from me. It’s totally like that, man. I’m the health nut.

Tom Griffin (32:07):

People feel judged. I mean, I think that’s really …

Austin McGuffie (32:11):

Yeah, because of your presence.

Tom Griffin (32:14):

I’m in the same position where I’m always like, “Listen, like you saw me last night, I had seven slices of pizza. I’m a flexible eater. I try to eat healthy most time, but I’m not totally dogmatic about this type of stuff.”

Austin McGuffie (32:31):

I think it’s important to go out of your way to make sure that people know that, because it’s tough when people paint you. We paint our own picture because we are interested in this stuff. It’s genuine interest. Especially for the people that you love, it’s hard to watch them maintain unhealthy habits that you know are impacting them negatively. It’s hard to not say anything. Choosing when to say something, it’s tough, but it has to be balanced out with … I don’t know. Honestly, it’s funny. I was talking to my wife about that yesterday, about how to keep that balance between I want you to stay healthy, but I still want to be your friend.

Tom Griffin (33:16):

I won’t judge you if you eat something that isn’t healthy.

Austin McGuffie (33:20):

It’s a delicate balance, man. We’re living parallel lives. I’m definitely the health nut in my circle.

Tom Griffin (33:27):

This is a big question for you, but let’s assume that being very judgmental of the community around you, friends and family, and telling them, for example, you’re going to live a shorter life and it’s terrible that you’re eating that right now is not an effective strategy for getting someone to get interested in the health space or care about it or find it important. How do you think about what effective strategies there are, whether that’s one-on-one conversation or broadly speaking around getting culture to change where people slowly start to get interested in this stuff?

Austin McGuffie (34:11):

Honestly, I think the biggest thing that helps is to take somebody from where they already are and show them how to make what they’re eating healthier for them. I think one of the biggest things, especially with diet culture, is people restrict themselves from the food that they’re eating when they could really just make some modifications to make it metabolically healthy. That’s what I try to accomplish with each of my videos that I post. None of the videos that I post are to condemn people for eating those things. Oatmeal, for example, even within the Levels community, I communicate with other Levels users who have eaten oatmeal.

Austin McGuffie (34:48):

Every single person is like, “Oh, well, oatmeal spiked my glucose, so I don’t eat it anymore.” If we take that approach to everyone, I find that people feel overwhelmed. They don’t want to make any changes because it’s just too overwhelming. Then they quit. Then you just start eating whatever, but if you take somebody, what they’re currently eating, and help them to make a small modification to it, add a little bit more fat fiber or protein, then you can show them that pursuing metabolic health is not as complicated as it seems, as long as you meet them where they are.

Tom Griffin (35:26):

That’s such an interesting point and framing. I think that so often people view this space and getting their arms around diet through the lens of what I need to cut out. I basically have to find things. I’m going to find out that things are unhealthy, which is one reason why people don’t even want to look into it. Because they’re like, “Oh, you’re just going to tell me that everything’s unhealthy.” Then it’s a matter of, “You can’t eat any of those things,” versus a very subtle shift. Step one would just be, to your point, how do you make this thing healthier? It’s not, “Don’t eat oatmeal,” it’s add protein and fiber and nut butter or whatever it might be.

Austin McGuffie (36:07):

I think that’s where culture plays a really big part into it and understanding culture, because if you don’t understand how somebody is eating and the foods that they enjoy eating then it’s hard to help them modify their diet in a way that’s actually sustainable. A perfect example for this is, so there’s a dish. I’m going to see if you know what it is. There’s a dish. Let’s say, Tom, you’re invited to the cookout. Being invited to the cookout is a thing, it’s definitely a cultural reference. Well, let’s say you were invited to the cookout and everybody has to bring a dish. There’s one dish in our community, let’s talk about my family, there’s one dish that people highly scrutinize when it’s made. Do you know what that is? Can you guess?

Tom Griffin (36:53):

They highly scrutinize it in a negative way?

Austin McGuffie (36:58):

In a matter of how is this going to taste? It has to be made the right way. If it’s not made the right way, then nobody’s going to eat it.

Tom Griffin (37:07):

I’m not sure. Tell me.

Austin McGuffie (37:10):

It’s potato salad. It’s the weirdest thing. It’s the weirdest thing. That’s what’s so weird about culture, because where did this come from? Why do we care so much about how potato salad tastes? It’s a real thing. A perfect example of this is I had a client in previous years and she really needed to be eating low carb so that she could stabilize her blood glucose a little bit better. We signed up for a very popular low carb subscription diet doctor. The recipes on their site are super awesome, low carb friendly, all that, but they have a recipe on there for potato salad. It looks absolutely nothing like how we eat potato salad.

Austin McGuffie (37:58):

When somebody looks at, it’s like, “I want to eat low carb. I want to enjoy this potato salad.” Nine out of 10 people are going to look at that recipe and be like, “This isn’t potato salad.” When you see three, four, five recipes like that, that you enjoy but don’t look or taste anything like how you used to enjoy them, you’re not going to eat it. You’re going to eat what you want to eat because food is more than just nutrients for our body. Biologically, that’s really all it is, but food has become an experience. If that experience doesn’t match up with what you’re used to, then it’s just not going to work for you.

Tom Griffin (38:41):

It’s such an important point. I know I’ve heard Sam, our CEO, mention that in a book that he read around … I think the book was generally about reducing stigma on certain types of technologies, or maybe just how to build technology for different populations. The example was building for the aging or elderly population. You can look at a population that is not your own and think that you know where they’re at and what you need to build or make for them. In this example, it was they don’t have good vision. Let’s build a phone that has enormous buttons on it with enormous numbers.

Tom Griffin (39:26):

Unsurprisingly, this population did not want to use a new type of phone that signaled to the world that they’re old and they can’t see. It took the iPhone coming out and having the setting where you can make the keyboard bigger in order for adoption of this particular type of technology. I’m sure I’m butchering this example, but you get the point. Knowing where someone is at and what their current perspective is, is the starting point then figuring out how do we extend this bridge to meet them there so they can slowly start to walk towards whatever that new knowledge is or behavior change, or whatever it might be?

Austin McGuffie (40:08):

We were just talking about behavior change with food, but the same principle applies to education. Because, like you mentioned earlier with the example of acronyms, if we don’t meet people where they are with how they understand certain concepts then, again, you’re unable to help them. It’s almost like having a language barrier. If I’m trying to communicate with someone who only speaks Spanish and I’m speaking to them in English and I fully expect them to understand, they’re going to walk away from that conversation with zero value. That’s really the origin of why I create content the way that I do. It’s who’s watching this, who do I want to watch this, and is what I’m saying going to be digestible? Would the me from three years ago be able to understand what the me from right now is saying? If the answer is no, then I can’t put it out.

Tom Griffin (41:04):

That’s such a skill, just for the record, because most people don’t remember what it was like when they … They just walk around with this assumption that they have always known the things that they currently know. They’ve totally lost track of what it was like before they learned any of this type of stuff. It’s clear that you do have that ability, which is really cool, and I think one reason why your content is so good.

Austin McGuffie (41:35):

I appreciate that. I think that I picked that up from my favorite teachers. If I think about the people who had the most success in helping me to understand the concept, it was people who met me where they are. We all have had that one teacher or professor who stood up there and just blabbermouthed about all the things that they knew. Man, I failed classes because of that, but you have those other educators who really tailor their knowledge to the people that they’re presenting it to. That’s really what it is. I just want to be a great teacher and a great teacher isn’t the one who’s the most knowledgeable. It’s the person who can deliver the information in the easiest way for people to understand.

Tom Griffin (42:20):

On that note, let’s take a slightly different population that is even more difficult than, say, friends in your community, children. I know you have … You have two, three?

Austin McGuffie (42:35):

I have four kids.

Tom Griffin (42:36):

Oh, you have four.

Austin McGuffie (42:37):

I know, man. It’s a lot.

Tom Griffin (42:40):

Kids is a touchy subject because people who get really invested in this space, understanding health and nutrition, often will say, “Yeah, but there’s no chance that I can change the habits and norms around my house because it’s difficult enough to just get kids to sit in their seat to eat anything. At that point, I’m just going to give them the food that they want.” In your own house, how do you think about these things and finding a balance between eating optimally and just getting through the day?

Austin McGuffie (43:15):

It depends day by day, but for the most part I think it’s treating your kids like adults. We probably explain too much to our kids about just all things health. If they’re interested in eating candy, it’s not that we’ll restrict them from eating candy. “I’m going to give you this candy, but I’m also going to tell you all these ingredients and what the possible impact is, and then help you build some good habits around eating candy.” We do a lot of reinforcing stereotypical bad decisions with good ones. For example, my kids, they always come home from school and they want starchy, sugary snacks because they’re hungry. Instead of telling them no, it’s just like, “Well, go eat a piece of fruit,” or, “how much protein have you had today?” Asking them questions in that manner so that they can still indulge in what they want, but providing them an option and balance to make a smart decision for themselves.

Tom Griffin (44:25):

That makes a lot of sense. We did a podcast interview with Kelly Laveck, who-

Austin McGuffie (44:31):

I listened to that. It was awesome.

Tom Griffin (44:34):

She’s amazing. I definitely recommend anyone listening to this who wants to dive in a bit more about how to find this balance with kids to listen to that episode because it’s really good. I really love that approach. I think that treating your kids like adults, at least in a lot of different scenarios, is really important because I think that they can understand a lot more than we sometimes give them credit for.

Austin McGuffie (44:56):

It is really tough to build healthy habits for kids who are hellbent on eating in the ways that are not optimal for the health. It really boils down, I think, to what food you have in the house and how do you eat as a parent? How are they seeing you treat your body? With the food that we have in the house, I tell my kids all the time, it’s like, “Are you hungry? Do you see anything that you want?” If their answer is no, it’s like, “Well, you’re not going to starve, so what are you going to eat? What do we have, available options, in this house?”

Austin McGuffie (45:38):

I go down the list with them. It’s like, “Well, if you don’t want this, do you want this? If you don’t want this, do you want this?” Eventually we settle on something, but it is just having healthy options in your house. Of course, that’s such a big hurdle for parents because, shoot, even myself a few years ago, there were several food options here that may not have been optimal for my children’s health. It boils down to education first for parents. Then once you know, it’s keeping good food in your house and then offering them options and giving them agency over what they’re putting in their body.

Tom Griffin (46:15):

I love that. I love that. I’m thinking back to when I was a kid and had to get motivated to eat vegetables or drink my milk, or whatever it might be. For me, I remember the role of athletes, professional athletes. I remember hearing at some point or telling myself … For me, my guy was Tracy McGrady. If anyone doesn’t know who that is, he’s an NBA player. I was a big Team Act fan. I remember literally thinking about Tracy McGrady when I was drinking my milk. If I want to have his jump shot or be making strong like him, I got to drink my milk. This is the 90s. I was born in 91′. At that point, pro athletes and sports and being big and strong and fast was valued in culture. I wonder if we could get with something like nutrition or longevity or long term health, or if it’s just too difficult. I’m not sure.

Austin McGuffie (47:24):

That’s a good question. I think that we already are. If you look at athletes for an example, I think that a very popular example is LeBron, who’s been in the league now for 19 years, very few injuries. One of the most talked about points about his longevity is that he spends millions of dollars a year taking care of his body. Now, of course, those are just athletes. It would have to be at a much larger scale to really have a solid impact on culture, but that’s a really good question. I don’t know if we’ll get there. I hope so.

Tom Griffin (48:02):

I think that’s a great example. To your point, so many people cite that stat around LeBron spends a million or two million a year on his health and performance. LeBron, Tom Brady comes to mind in terms of longevity that when people dig in a little bit more they find out that nutrition and not just exercise, well, there’s a whole host of aspects within health that they’re focused on, but are playing a vital role. It’s probably got to be more visible too. If you think about kids or something like that, they probably see LeBron, I don’t know, similarly to the way that I saw athletes, but we might need a little bit more visibility on something like nutrition and thinking about what’s happening inside of the body instead of just jumping high and running fast.

Austin McGuffie (48:54):

Then there are things that work against people like LeBron who might promote longevity and taking care of your body, different influential factors that influence community that have you going the opposite way. If you look at some of our artists, actors, these are the people who they just amass several millions of followers. That’s where all of our eyes are on. I think that it would be naive to not admit that people like that heavily influence culture. We have a drug culture in this country. We have eating culture, drinking. All those things combined, it’s like a battle between the two of who are people going to model their behavior behind and where is that going to lead us over the next, let’s say, decade?

Tom Griffin (49:54):

Just on that note, tough question, but if you could wave a magic wand what would you like to see change maybe within specifically the influencer, content creator, media personality world when it comes to this space?

Austin McGuffie (50:15):

Wave a magic wand? If I can wave a magic wand, I think that I would wave a magic wand for people to remove their ego when it comes to nutrition and exercise and all things related to health. I think most times, especially in the nutrition community, you’re looking at keto, carnivore, low carb, calories in versus calories out, insulin carbohydrate model. A good percent of that is based on the data that’s presented, but then half of that is people and their ego and not being willing to depart from previously held ideas. I think that sets back a lot of progress that we could be making in helping people. I think that’s one of the reasons why I’m so supportive of what you guys are doing because you guys aren’t out here pedaling anything except get to know your body and make changes based on the data that you’re being presented with. Of course, you guys have developed best practices. You’ve determined some things that work best based on the feedback of the people in your community. If I could just wave a magic wand and make one change, it would be no more ego. Let’s all sit down at the table and let’s figure out how to get this world on the right track when it comes to our health.

Tom Griffin (51:47):

Wise words, no more ego. You heard it here first.

Austin McGuffie (51:50):

No more ego, let’s do away with ego.

Tom Griffin (51:53):

I love it. Well, Austin, it’s always a pleasure chatting with you. We’ll close out, but where can people follow you and learn more about what you’re up to these days?

Austin McGuffie (52:05):

I am most active, I think, on Instagram. You can find me there @MetabolismMentor. YouTube is Metabolism Mentor as well. Twitter, I’ve been trying to get more active on Twitter.

Tom Griffin (52:17):

I just followed you this morning.

Austin McGuffie (52:19):

Oh, cool. I got to go follow you back. I just updated my profile picture from three years ago.

Tom Griffin (52:23):

Saw that, looking good.

Austin McGuffie (52:26):

Actually, it’s Austin McGuffie on there, but you can type in Metabolism Mentor and it should show up. I think that’s it.

Tom Griffin (52:32):

Well, appreciate the time again and keep up the awesome work. You’re an important voice in this space and we’re looking forward to continuing to work with you and support you in every way that we can.

Austin McGuffie (52:43):

I have an endless amount of gratitude for you and the rest of the Levels team.

Tom Griffin (52:56):

We are wrapped. I thought that was interesting.

Austin McGuffie (52:58):

I did too. I think that it’s going to be funny. I know how you guys do the before and the after sometimes, I think the comment with helping people grow their butt.

Tom Griffin (53:12):

Dude, I almost said five more just jokes about that throughout. I was like, I got to hold back.

Austin McGuffie (53:17):

You should have.

Tom Griffin (53:21):

I almost did go circling back to the big butts a couple times. I was like, I got to reign in my natural sense of humor here, otherwise …

Austin McGuffie (53:28):

You should have done it. It would’ve made it more fun. It definitely would’ve put me in an interesting position with my wife.