How sugar affects kids (Austin McGuffie & Dr. Robert Lustig)

Diseases like type 2 diabetes and fatty liver disease used to be considered diseases of aging. Now they are now becoming common in children. Dr. Robert Lustig, a pediatric endocrinologist with over 40 years of experience, said that the culprit is sugar and sugary beverages in particular. In this episode, friend of Levels Austin McGuffie talks with Dr. Lustig about how children’s diets became so inundated with sugar and the steps parents can take to cut back.

08:21 – Sugar is damaging kids’ mitochondria

Kids are getting fatty liver disease and type 2 diabetes from sugar.

When you actually go to the old literature and you look and you say type 2 diabetes, fatty liver disease, how come children get these two diseases today? And the answer is, well, because their mitochondria are screwed. Mitochondria being the little energy burning factories inside each of your cells. Those are the things that convert food energy into chemical energy so that the cell can be powered. And if your mitochondria are dysfunctional, if your mitochondria don’t work, then you get these two diseases. So what is that telling us? That’s telling us that children are in some fashion exposed to something that is making their mitochondria not work. Well, in the adult world that was alcohol, but kids don’t drink alcohol, but they consume sugar and it turns out sugar and alcohol are metabolized identically by the mitochondria.

17:16 – The more dangerous fat

There are three types of fat: subcutaneous, visceral, and liver. The last two are the ones causing chronic disease.

So the visceral fat, that big belly fat, it is much smaller than the subcutaneous or the big butt fat, but it is much more dangerous in terms of causing chronic disease because when it releases those inflammatory cytokines, they go straight to the liver. Now, the third depot, the fat in the liver. Okay? That is pretty much straight soft drinks. That is sugar being mainlined straight to the only organ that can metabolize that sugar, that molecule fructose, that sweet molecule in sugar, is the liver. And what happens is that the liver can only metabolize a certain amount of it. And after that, it turns the rest of it into fat. And then that fat gets clogged in the liver causing this fatty liver disease. And now that fat is right in the liver instead of somewhere else. And it’s causing major damage at a much lower amount.

22:03 – Kids need better nutrition education

Kids are getting nutrition information from the food industry and doctors who themselves aren’t educated in nutrition.

The question is who’s educating them about nutrition? Where are they getting their nutrition education? They’re probably getting it from the food industry. They’re probably getting it off the side of a package or they’re probably getting it off some TV commercial. But they’re probably not getting it from any reputable nutrition source. They’re probably not getting it from a doctor. And to be honest with you, maybe it’s better that they shouldn’t get it from a doctor because doctors don’t know squat about nutrition, because only 28% of medical schools even have a nutrition curriculum. And those that do, the total number of contact hours is only 19.6 for 6,000-hour medical education interval. Nutrition could probably solve 75% of chronic diseases, the diseases that ail us, and medical schools are spending less than 0.01% on explaining that to student doctors. That’s part of my job is to basically undo that problem.

25:27 – Infants get introduced to sugar early

Savory vegetables are the healthiest foods because they don’t have much sugar naturally, but baby food companies add some to food purees.

The food industry, the processed baby food industry adds sugar to those savory vegetables that they make, the pureed stuff in the little Gerber jars. And it’s not just Gerber, it’s Beech Nut. You know what I mean? Pick your company. I’m not picking on Gerber per se. They add sugar to those jars so that the kids will eat them on the first try so that the parents go, “Hey, Mikey likes it.” So now you’re branded.

27:27 – Fat was removed, but sugar was added

Fat became the villain of the diet and nutrition world, so companies made fat-free options. But to make foods still taste good they added sugar instead.

You got to add something to make the food palatable, to make it worth eating. So what they did, they added sugar. Sugar had gotten exonerated. It got exonerated completely, inappropriately by the food industry. The food industry, not the USDA, the food industry gave sugar a clean bill of health, not the USDA, not the FDA. But the food industry said it was safe because it made sense because if you make food low fat, number one, you’re creating a new class that you can sell, which you can eat more low-fat stuff. So now they’ve got two lines of food and they could add the sugar, which was cheaper than the fat. And they could take the fat and they could make cheese, which they did. So it’s not like they just took the fat out, like dumped it. They turned it into cheese. So they were getting triple benefit out of this. This worked for the food industry. Fact is, it didn’t work for us.

32:06 – Sugar causes behavioral issues

Fructose leads to an increase in excitatory neurotransmitters and a decrease in inhibitory neurotransmitters. That leads to all sorts of emotional and behavioral problems.

with fructose, what you end up with is more glutamate and less GABA. And so what you’ve got is you’ve got an excitatory neurotransmitter that is not offset by the inhibitory neurotransmitter. And so the fact is, it could cause, and we think it does cause behavior issues, anger issues, irritability, and trouble concentrating. Indeed, now, food industry say, “Well, wait a second. But sugar is energy. It’s helping your mitochondria.” But it’s not. Okay. Yes, if you put it in a bomb calorimeter, it will explode at four calories per gram. That’s true. But your brain’s not a bomb calorimeter. But if it’s inhibiting mitochondrial ATP production, then you are actually depriving your brain of the chemical energy it needs to operate. And those excitatory neurotransmitters are going great guns.

35:17 – Kids can have sugar addiction

Just like adults can be addicted to alcohol, kids can be addicted to sugar.

Well, likely the same is true for sugar. So there are kids who are going to be social sugar eaters, and they’re going to be other kids who are going to be sugar addicts. And what is it that leads to one kid being one and one kid being the other? We still don’t know. We don’t know what those issues are. One thing we know is that stress is a major one. And whether it’s the adverse childhood experiences laying down altered neural circuitry early on? Or is it cortisol metabolism? We just don’t know yet what does that. We do know that the more stress you’re under, the more likely you are to be a sugar addict.

37:33 – Diet soda is bad too

Diet soda may not have fructose, but the calorie-free sweeteners cause their own set of problems.

So you say, “Wait a second, but there’s no fructose in that diet Coca-Cola. That diet sweetener is not fructose and not being metabolized for calories. It’s not even affecting glutamine synthesis. Why should it be a problem?” And the answer is now we have the data to show that these diet sweeteners actually cause changes in the intestinal microbiome they cause changes in the bacteria in the intestine, they cause inflammation in the intestine by themselves. And that inflammation leads to a phenomenon called leaky gut. That’s right. And the way you know that leaky gut’s a problem is because leaky gut is behind the rise in inflammatory bowel disease, the rise in irritable bowel syndrome, the rise in allergy and the rise in autoimmune disease.

43:20 – Educate the child and the parents

In order to help change a child’s eating habits, both the parent and the child need to be educated about the dangers of sugar.

We just remember though that kids only do what their parents tell them. And kids don’t have access to everything in the store unless the parent brings it to them. So when you’re a pediatrician, you realize you don’t have one patient, you have two. You have the kid and you have the parent. You have to educate both of them. If you only educate one and not the other, all that will do is create conflict. All that will do is create rancor. And all that will do is end up with the kid either hiding the candy bar wrappers underneath the bed or the parent eating the cookies off in the garage. Whatever it is, it’s not a good scene.

46:46 – Get rid of sugary drinks

The most important change that a parent can make today is to get rid of sodas or any other sugary drinks.

We studied our program and basically if the kids were big sugar consumers, in the terms of sugar-sweetened beverages, then basically all the other things we did in clinic didn’t work. And the reason was because those mitochondria are being poisoned. And any effects that we tried to do better didn’t work because they had this toxin aboard. They had to get clean first. And so we found that sugar consumption was a primary inhibitor of weight loss and of improved insulin sensitivity, irrespective of anything else we did. So, that had to come first. Which is why I tell everybody, the first thing you have to do is just get every sugary beverage out of the house. That has to be everyone’s first move.

Dr. Robert Lustig (00:06):

There’s an old saying in pediatrics. How many times do you have to introduce a savory food to an infant before they will accept it? 13 times. How many times do you have to introduce a sweet food to an infant before they’ll accept it? Once.

Ben Grynol (00:25):

I’m Ben Grynol, part of the early startup team here at Levels. We’re building tech that helps people to understand their metabolic health. And this is your front row seat to everything we do. This is A whole New Level.

Ben Grynol (00:58):

As a parent, it’s hard enough to feed kids as it is. A lot of times, you’re not just working against what a kid wants, which tends to be things like sugar. Why not? You’re also working against societal values. Kids tend to see or hear things. “Hey, I want this type of food. That’s what I should have for breakfast.” Well, it gets very challenging and if you want to embed certain values within children when they’re young, if you want to expose them to certain things, foods that are healthier, provide them with choices, provide them with the knowledge and the foundation of education to understand why certain foods are better for them than others.

Ben Grynol (01:38):

So Austin McGuffie, father of four, friend of Levels and a content creator, he sat down with Dr. Robert Lustig. Rob, if you’re a regular podcast listener. As you know that he doesn’t really like to be called Doctor. Well, Austin and Rob sat down and they discussed this idea of kids and nutrition. What can you do as a parent? Well, Dr. Lustig, gosh, there it is. Rob. Rob is a pediatric endocrinologist with over 40 years of experience. He’s got so much insight when it comes to the damages that are caused by things like sugar, things like highly processed and refined foods. And so Rob does everything he can to educate the world, to spread this knowledge and to help people make the right choices. Austin and Rob had a great conversation and here’s where they kicked things off.

Austin McGuffie (02:35):

For those of you who are new to A Whole New Level, Dr. Lustig, Rob, as we will affectionately refer to him on as today. He’s not a stranger to our podcast. But if this is your first time listening in, then it is important to know that he’s a pediatric endocrinologist and spent most of his time helping kids who wouldn’t grow. Does that sound about right, Rob?

Dr. Robert Lustig (02:54):

That was how I started was taking care of short kids, but the short kids got fat on me. So I turned myself into an obesity doctor.

Austin McGuffie (03:04):

God, I love that. We’re going to get a little bit more into that as we talk about kids nutrition today. But I think one of the things that is not oftentimes mission when people list most of your accomplishments is that you’re also a father. And for those people listening today, it’s difficult to accept advice from people who have not lived a day in their shoes. And as someone who has four kids, myself, hearing some nutrition advice from someone who has already done it is special.

Dr. Robert Lustig (03:31):

Indeed. There’s a saying, you cannot be a good pediatrician until you’ve been a parent. So I do understand that.

Austin McGuffie (03:39):

That sounds about right. Well, actually I want to get us started off right there. So you have spent several years taking care of other people’s sick kids. What type of perspectives did that provide you when you came home from work every day and it was time to feed your kids?

Dr. Robert Lustig (03:59):

What I can say is that my concept of what food in our own home was changed over the course of the 40 years that I was in practice. I used to think processed food was okay. I used to think processed food was convenient. I used to think processed food was nutritious. I succumbed to the siren [called 00:04:27] ultra processed food and sugar and all the other things that make it addictive, just like everyone else did.

Austin McGuffie (04:34):

Exactly. And still does.

Dr. Robert Lustig (04:36):

And still does. Of course, it still does. And it was only through the research itself and only through the fact that I saw that my kids were starting to have weight issues as they were getting older, that I really, really started questioning my own counseling, my own knowledge base and my wife and I finally came to the decision that we couldn’t eat out anymore.

Austin McGuffie (05:05):

Wow. So wait, not at all, no eating out?

Dr. Robert Lustig (05:09):

Once a month, maybe.

Austin McGuffie (05:10):

Gotcha. Okay, yeah. Some moderation involved.

Dr. Robert Lustig (05:13):

Way moderation. I mean, really, really, really cutting back. And I will tell you that was a hard thing to do, but it was the right thing to do and I know it was the right thing to do for my own health, for my daughter’s health, because my daughter’s has a weight issue, not wasted on me. And I’ve seen the improvement because I’ve taken my own advice.

Austin McGuffie (05:39):

Gotcha. I think that’s one of the hardest thing things to do is to know better, but then to turn around and do better, especially when you have kids.

Dr. Robert Lustig (05:49):

Well, you got to walk the walk.

Austin McGuffie (05:51):

Exactly.

Dr. Robert Lustig (05:52):

Talking the talk’s one thing and I talk good talk, but walking is a whole nother thing and it was tough. I worked, I worked late. My wife is a pediatric nurse practitioner. She had plenty to do too. And it was easy to let somebody else do it for you. And we came to realize that that was ultimately not in our best interest.

Austin McGuffie (06:16):

Exactly, which brings up a quote that I think I heard you say on the 10 lessons I learned before 50. I love that podcast. Anybody listening to this should listen. But with that podcast, you said something at the beginning, you said that, this was the first time that you were being tapped for your wisdom and not your knowledge. And I’m hoping to get a lot of that today because, I think there’s obviously so much information out there. We are in an information age, anything you want to know, you can find out on YouTube.

Dr. Robert Lustig (06:44):

Or anything you don’t want to know, you can find on YouTube and anything that’s true or false can be found on YouTube. [crosstalk 00:06:52] around the false is there is true. So it’s a grab bag, is what it is.

Austin McGuffie (06:58):

It is. The Alliance have gotten quite blurred over the years. But over the past 30 years, the environment of our nutrition has changed. And on that podcast, you said that there are two diseases that exist now that didn’t exist 30 to 40 years ago in children, which are type 2 diabetes and fatty liver disease.

Dr. Robert Lustig (07:19):

That’s right.

Austin McGuffie (07:19):

What’s going on?

Dr. Robert Lustig (07:21):

Yeah. Right. What’s going on? And this all happened on my watch and I had to figure it out. Bottom line, you go to the textbooks and you take a look. I mean, type two diabetes was the disease of aging. When I entered medical school in 1976, 2.5% of adults over age 65 had type two diabetes. 2.5% of adults over 65. Today it is 10% of adults over age 20.

Austin McGuffie (08:03):

That’s insane.

Dr. Robert Lustig (08:04):

Okay? So it used to be the disease of aging. Now it’s the disease of five year olds.

Austin McGuffie (08:12):

That’s crazy.

Dr. Robert Lustig (08:13):

And fatty liver disease used to be the disease of alcohol.

Austin McGuffie (08:19):

Right. But kids aren’t drinking alcohol.

Dr. Robert Lustig (08:21):

And kids are not drinking alcohol. And so when you actually go to the old literature and you look and you say type 2 diabetes, fatty liver disease, how come children get these two diseases today? And the answer is, well, because their mitochondria are screwed. Mitochondria being the little energy burning factories inside each of your cells. Those are the things that convert food energy into chemical energy so that the cell can be powered. And if your mitochondria are dysfunctional, if your mitochondria don’t work, then you get these two diseases. So what is that telling us? That’s telling us that children are in some fashion exposed to something that is making their mitochondria not work.

Austin McGuffie (09:12):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (09:13):

Well, in the adult world that was alcohol, but kids don’t drink alcohol, but they consume sugar and it turns out sugar and alcohol are metabolized identically by the mitochondria. And so, I put this concept together back in 2007 and gave a talk at the NIH and said, “I think that the sugar is doubling as alcohol and causing this problem, and that’s what’s going on.” And I gave this to an audience of toxicologists who knows something about toxins, and I said, “I think sugars are toxin.” And they went ballistic. Not because I was wrong, but because they realized I was right. And I’ve been saying it ever since. And the fact is the more data we generate, the more clear that this is exactly what the problem is. Sugar is a chronic dose dependent [inaudible 00:10:19] liver toxin poisoning, mitochondria and leading to energy utilization dysfunction, and leading to chronic disease. How else to say it?

Austin McGuffie (10:34):

Yeah. That’s it. Very simply, and it’s quite tragic. I think one of the common thoughts with parents is, well, my kids don’t eat that much sugar. Right?

Dr. Robert Lustig (10:43):

No, they don’t eat that much sugar identified as sugar.

Austin McGuffie (10:46):

Exactly.

Dr. Robert Lustig (10:47):

Unfortunately, they eat retro cereal, they eat [inaudible 00:10:51], toaster strudels, they eat salad dressing, they eat host yogurt. They eat a host of things that are chuck laden with sugar, but aren’t identified as such. Right?

Austin McGuffie (11:07):

Yeah.

Dr. Robert Lustig (11:07):

So in fact, the total consumption of sugar in children today is on the order of about 18 to 20 teaspoons of added sugar per day. And the [inaudible 00:11:23] association says that for children, you shouldn’t be above three to four teaspoons of added sugar per day. So kids are basically getting four to five times the amount of this chronic dose dependent liver toxin than they can metabolize.

Austin McGuffie (11:41):

And so for the kids, there are several kids who can or are eating that much sugar. Let’s say they’re not obese, or from the outside looking in, things look like they’re going okay. Are they though? Are we seeing like cases where children are sick on the inside, but look healthy on the outside?

Dr. Robert Lustig (11:59):

Absolutely. So I didn’t identify this. This was identified by Dr. Jimmy Bella [neurologia 00:12:05] at University College, London. He described this phenomenon, which he called TOFI, T-O-F-I, thin on the outside, fat on the inside. Now the thing people don’t understand about obesity and very clear on this and I’m doing my best to educate the medical establishment. But it’s a tough slog to be sure.

Austin McGuffie (12:26):

Tough crowd.

Dr. Robert Lustig (12:27):

Yeah, they are. There are three, counted about three separate fat depots in your body.

Austin McGuffie (12:33):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Robert Lustig (12:34):

Now, obesity is when the obvious fat depot gets big, that obvious fat depot, we call the subcutaneous or the big butt fat.

Austin McGuffie (12:51):

Lovely.

Dr. Robert Lustig (12:52):

Does this swimsuit make me look fat? That fat? Oh, by the way, never answer that question. Protest.

Austin McGuffie (12:59):

That’s the wisdom we’re looking for.

Dr. Robert Lustig (13:01):

Right. Do not. Never answer that question. Turns out the subcutaneous or big butt fat may be cosmetically undesirable, but it is metabolically inert. It is not what’s causing chronic disease.

Austin McGuffie (13:18):

Mm.

Dr. Robert Lustig (13:19):

And you can store energy in that big butt fat up to the point where those fat cells swell so severely that it chokes off blood supply and they start dying. When they start dying, they leak. And when they leak, the macrophages, shall we say, cleanup crew cells come in to clean up the oil spill.

Austin McGuffie (13:47):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (13:48):

Okay. And then they release what are known as cytokines, which are inflammatory proteins. And they get the whole chronic disease thing go.

Austin McGuffie (13:56):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Robert Lustig (13:58):

So it is true that at a certain point, you can store enough big butt fat to lead to a problem. But the reason you have big butt fat is so that you won’t have a problem.

Austin McGuffie (14:11):

Exactly.

Dr. Robert Lustig (14:12):

Because that big butt fat is eminently expandable.

Austin McGuffie (14:16):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Robert Lustig (14:17):

Okay? Maybe it won’t get into a size four bathing suit, but it is eminently expandable without causing disease.

Dr. Robert Lustig (14:26):

Now the second fat depot is not even related to what you eat. It is called visceral with a belly fat. And that’s not because of food. That’s because of stress. Cortisol. And the reason we know that is because you can take patients with endogenous depression, okay? Suicidal people who are so miserable, they want to kill themselves. You admit them to the hospital because they’re a danger to themselves. You put them in an MRI scanner and they are losing weight because they have no appetite. They won’t eat. They’re losing weight, but they’re gaining visceral fat. They are gaining big belly fat. Okay. So that second depot, it’s more dangerous because it feeds the liver directly that visceral fat. Now, obviously there are things you can make that visceral fat go even higher. But bottom line is visceral fat is not dependent on your food intake.

Austin McGuffie (15:33):

So with visceral fat and the fact that cortisol is what’s causing it, in your clinical experience, is that something you were seeing in children?

Dr. Robert Lustig (15:41):

Oh yeah. Absolutely.

Austin McGuffie (15:43):

Nobody assumes that kids are stressed out. I say that my kids aren’t stressed out. You don’t have bills. You don’t have to feed anybody.

Dr. Robert Lustig (15:49):

You know what? They have COVID instead.

Austin McGuffie (15:52):

Right. Seriously.

Dr. Robert Lustig (15:53):

And before they had COVID they had adverse childhood experiences.

Austin McGuffie (15:56):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (15:57):

Okay, which have been around since there have been children.

Austin McGuffie (16:01):

Wow. Yeah.

Dr. Robert Lustig (16:01):

Okay. And so there are lots of reasons for visceral fat in children related to stress. Kids are more stress today than ever before.

Austin McGuffie (16:11):

Does that show up in any way on the outside?

Dr. Robert Lustig (16:15):

Sure. Absolutely shows up with high blood pressure.

Austin McGuffie (16:18):

Mm.

Dr. Robert Lustig (16:19):

Okay. We’re seeing kids with high blood pressure, like crazy. Especially unfortunately, African Americans.

Austin McGuffie (16:25):

Yeah. Why is that though? Do we know why? Can we pinpoint that?

Dr. Robert Lustig (16:29):

Well, that’s complicated. Austin, my colleague at the University of Tennessee, Memphis, Bruce Albert, who’s been doing studies in this for a long time, likely the adverse childhood experiences activate the area of the brain called the amygdala, put it on high alert all the time. It maintains a constantly elevated blood pressure. So it goes way back.

Austin McGuffie (16:50):

That would make a really interesting conversation on the effects of generational trauma and health.

Dr. Robert Lustig (16:56):

Absolutely. Yes.

Austin McGuffie (16:57):

Interesting. Well, we’ll table that conversation, but today-

Dr. Robert Lustig (17:01):

That’s a whole nother Kettle of fish. No question.

Austin McGuffie (17:03):

Yeah. Oh, we definitely want to get into that. But today I think there are a lot of parents out there that don’t know which way to turn when it comes to feeding their kids. But before we get there-

Dr. Robert Lustig (17:13):

Let’s get to the third depot.

Austin McGuffie (17:14):

Yeah, okay, there we go.

Dr. Robert Lustig (17:16):

Remember I said there were three, right? So the visceral fat, that big belly fat, it is much smaller than the subcutaneous or the big butt fat, but it is much more dangerous in terms of causing chronic disease because when it releases those inflammatory cytokines, they go straight to the liver.

Austin McGuffie (17:37):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (17:38):

Now, the third depot, the fat, the liver fat in the liver. Okay? That is pretty much straight soft drinks.

Austin McGuffie (17:50):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (17:50):

That is sugar being mainlined straight to the only organ that can metabolize that sugar, that molecule fructose, that sweet molecule and sugar, is the liver. And what happens is that the liver can only metabolize a certain amount of it. And after that, it turns the rest of it in too fat. And then that fat gets clogged in the liver causing this fatty liver disease. And now that fat is right in the liver instead of somewhere else.

Dr. Robert Lustig (18:24):

And it’s causing major damage at a much lower amount.

Austin McGuffie (18:28):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Robert Lustig (18:28):

So for adults, you can store about 10 kilos or 22 pounds of big butt fat before you get sick. You can store about six pounds of big belly fat before you get sick. But you can only store about a half a pound of liver fat before you get sick.

Austin McGuffie (18:49):

Wow.

Dr. Robert Lustig (18:49):

Now, do you think a half a pound of liver fat’s going to show up on the scale?

Austin McGuffie (18:53):

Absolutely not.

Dr. Robert Lustig (18:54):

So all of these people who think they’re healthy because they didn’t gain weight, but aren’t, it’s because they’re not looking at their liver fat.

Austin McGuffie (19:05):

It’s the silent killer.

Dr. Robert Lustig (19:06):

It’s the silent killer. It’s like hypertension. You don’t know you have a problem until it’s too late.

Austin McGuffie (19:11):

So you just said that the liver is the only organ that can metabolize fructose.

Dr. Robert Lustig (19:16):

Now the scientists in the audience who are listening will say, “Wait a second, that’s not true. That’s not true.” In fact, kidney can metabolize fructose when it is starved. In the starvation state, the kidney can metabolize it also. But in the fed state, only the liver can metabolized fructose.

Austin McGuffie (19:32):

Well, that’s interesting because I know that pretty much every parent in the United States, when we’re from across the globe, when we’re packing lunch for our kids to go to school, I’m going to put a sandwich in there, maybe some crackers. The last thing I’ll put in there is a juice box. And they’re eating there at lunch and then they are, of course going to drink their juice afterwards. If their juice is high in high fructose corn syrup, or just fructose in general, that is being straight up metabolized by the liver.

Dr. Robert Lustig (19:59):

It is, it is.

Austin McGuffie (20:00):

No kidding.

Dr. Robert Lustig (20:01):

Yeah. One thing you said that we need to go into, because it’s related to Levels Health, is you said that they’re going to have their juice box after the meal.

Austin McGuffie (20:10):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (20:12):

You sure about that?

Austin McGuffie (20:13):

You know what? I would’ve to ask my kids because I’d [crosstalk 00:20:18].

Dr. Robert Lustig (20:18):

What if they have the juice box before the meal or start at least before the meal? And it turns out that the less that’s in the stomach to start with when you take that in that juice box, the higher your blood glucose excursion is going to go, and the quicker your liver is going to get overwhelmed. So it’s actually bad idea. So if you’re going have the juice box, not that you should, but if you’re going to have it, probably it is better to have it at the end of the meal.

Austin McGuffie (20:48):

Exactly.

Dr. Robert Lustig (20:48):

For that reason, except talk to your kids as to whether that’s what’s happening.

Austin McGuffie (20:52):

Exactly. So for the parents listening, definitely advise them, if you’re going to continue to give them juice [crosstalk 00:20:58].

Dr. Robert Lustig (20:58):

Don’t put it in lunch in the lunchbox in the first place.

Austin McGuffie (21:00):

Don’t tell me not to put juice boxes in my kids lunch box.

Dr. Robert Lustig (21:03):

Yes, I am. That’s a really bad idea.

Austin McGuffie (21:07):

Yeah. It’s funny because I’ve been shopping at Costco lately and I’m going down the store and it’s almost like a jerk reaction. I grew up with juice boxes in my lunch box and it’s almost like a traditional thing. As I’ve expanded my knowledge, I’m looking at it like, “Ah, just drink some water.”

Dr. Robert Lustig (21:22):

Yeah. How about some sparkling water? You know?

Austin McGuffie (21:25):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (21:25):

Yeah [crosstalk 00:21:26].

Austin McGuffie (21:26):

Put some lemon juice in it.

Dr. Robert Lustig (21:28):

Well, or whatever.

Austin McGuffie (21:30):

I gotcha. So you just brought up an interesting point. You said that kids who are drinking their juice boxes before the lunch are experiencing a glucose rollercoaster basically. And we all know that what goes up must come down. I think this is a very interesting topic to discover the connectivity between food and education. There are a lot of parents listening to this who might not be very serious about their children’s nutrition, but they take their education very seriously. How do those two tie in together?

Dr. Robert Lustig (22:03):

Well, the question is who’s educating them about nutrition? Where are they getting their nutrition education? They’re probably getting it from the food industry. They’re probably getting it off the side of a package or they’re probably getting it off some TV commercial. But they’re probably not getting it from any reputable nutrition source. They’re probably not getting it from a doctor. And to be honest with you, maybe it’s better that they shouldn’t get it from a doctor because doctors don’t know squat about nutrition, because only 28% of medical schools even have a nutrition curriculum. And those that do, the total number of contact hours is only 19.6 for 6,000 hour medical education interval. Nutrition could probably solve 75% of chronic diseases. The diseases that ALS and medical schools are spending less than 0.01% on explaining that to student doctors. That’s part of my job is to basically undo that problem.

Austin McGuffie (23:11):

Well, you have a tough job ahead of you.

Dr. Robert Lustig (23:13):

Yeah. You think?

Austin McGuffie (23:15):

So with the educating kids on their nutrition, was there anything specific that you did with your daughters as far as teaching them about nutrition that you saw manifest later on in their life?

Dr. Robert Lustig (23:27):

So the main thing is you got to walk the walk.

Austin McGuffie (23:31):

Yeah.

Dr. Robert Lustig (23:32):

As I said, the beginning of this, I wasn’t particularly good at it at the beginning myself, it took a while, but they got it. They got it. And now both kids are very good about identifying what the problems are. When we go into the store, they’re not pulling at me for breakfast cereal or other, shall we say problematic items because they understand and they get it. They are also both very, very comfortable with virtually any vegetable in the store.

Austin McGuffie (24:04):

Wonderful.

Dr. Robert Lustig (24:05):

And that’s the most important thing.

Austin McGuffie (24:08):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (24:09):

The fact is vegetables are almost universally not sweet.

Austin McGuffie (24:15):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Robert Lustig (24:16):

Okay. They’re very few vegetables that are sweet. Corn can be a little sweet, sweet corn. Beets can be a little sweet. In fact, we get sugar from beets, sugar beets.

Austin McGuffie (24:27):

Exactly. Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (24:28):

There are some vegetables that have some innate level of sugar. But for the most part, most vegetables are not sweet. In which case, then the tastes of those vegetables are not, shall we say, conducive [inaudible 00:24:45] them right off the bat.

Austin McGuffie (24:49):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (24:50):

Right? And there’s an old saying in pediatrics. How many times do you have to introduce a savory food to an infant before they will accept it? Answer, median of 13 times. 13 times. How many times do you have to introduce a sweet food to an infant before they will accept?

Austin McGuffie (25:11):

Once.

Dr. Robert Lustig (25:12):

Once. That’s it.

Austin McGuffie (25:14):

And I have a two year old who proves that theory.

Dr. Robert Lustig (25:17):

That’s right.

Austin McGuffie (25:18):

So do you think that with those savory foods, do you think that we’re giving up too early?

Dr. Robert Lustig (25:23):

Absolutely. It’s basically the path of least resistance.

Austin McGuffie (25:26):

Yeah.

Dr. Robert Lustig (25:27):

The food industry, the processed baby food industry adds sugar to those savory vegetables that they make, the [pureed 00:25:38] stuff in the little Gerber jars. And it’s not just Gerber, it’s peach, nut. You know what I mean? Pick your company. I’m not picking on Gerber per se. They add sugar to those jars so that the kids will eat them on the first try so that the parents go, “Hey, Mikey likes it.” So now you’re branded.

Austin McGuffie (26:00):

Exactly. And they’re in the household [crosstalk 00:26:02].

Dr. Robert Lustig (26:01):

They know what they’re doing, but the cocaine in there too, while you’re at it.

Austin McGuffie (26:07):

I guess they might as well. So that’s really tough for a lot of parents because people, we rely on these packaged foods to [crosstalk 00:26:17] not just to package food, the formula as well. This kind of goes back to something else you said on that podcast. You said that if you don’t learn how to cook your own food, you’re hostage to the food industry for the rest of your life.

Dr. Robert Lustig (26:29):

That’s the truth.

Austin McGuffie (26:30):

And being hostage to the food industry, would you say in your opinion, is that what’s gotten us in this position in the first place?

Dr. Robert Lustig (26:36):

Absolutely. Absolutely. So if you look at ultra processed food and its history, it really picked up around 1975 to 1980. That’s one thing that really started going, shall we say out of control?

Austin McGuffie (26:53):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (26:53):

There were several reasons for that. One is that the US dietary guidelines. The first US diet dietary guidelines said, eat less fat. Well, if you’re going to eat less fat, the only way to do that is to eat food that’s been processed to have less fat. All right? And that, of course, that got the pasta craze going, and it also got the Entenmann’s low fat cakes going. Well, when you take the fat out of food, it tastes like cardboard.

Austin McGuffie (27:25):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (27:26):

You know the flavor [crosstalk 00:27:26].

Austin McGuffie (27:26):

What do you have to add?

Dr. Robert Lustig (27:27):

Right. So you got to add something to make the food palatable, to make it worth eating. So what they do, they added sugar. Sugar had gotten exonerated. It got exonerated completely inappropriately by the food industry. The food industry, not the USDA, the food industry gave sugar a clean bill of health, not the USDA, not the FDA, but the food industry said it was safe because it made sense because if you make food low fat, number one, you’re creating a new class that you can sell, which you can eat more low fat stuff. So now they’ve got two lines of food and they could add the sugar, which was cheaper than the fat. And they could take the fat and they could make cheese, which they did. So it’s not like they just took the fat out, like dumped it. they turned it into cheese. So they were getting triple benefit out of this. This worked for the food industry. Fact is, it didn’t work for us.

Austin McGuffie (28:42):

Exactly. They did not have our best interest in mind when they did that. That makes me think about kids. So my wife and I, we run a PE program at a learning academy here in Georgia. It’s a self-directed learning academy. It’s called The Forest School. And the kids there are in charge of their own curriculum. And they guide themselves through their curriculum. The thing about that is when some of the children show up to school with foods that send their glucose on a rollercoaster, [inaudible 00:29:10] my observation, I see that it’s more difficult for them to guide themselves through their curriculum because their blood sugar has crashed, they’re losing focus. I know you mentioned one of your previous podcasts that taking soda machines out of a school increased the student’s performance. What was the exact metrics on that?

Dr. Robert Lustig (29:29):

Right. So we showed here in California and when we got sodas out of schools, kids’ grades got better.

Austin McGuffie (29:37):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Robert Lustig (29:37):

Now here’s the paradox. I just told you, right at the beginning of our discussion, that sugar is a chronic dose dependent liver toxin, because it poisons the mitochondria. I also said that only the liver metabolizes fructose for energy, right? I lied. In fact, astrocytes in the brain are responsible for turning fructose into glycogen in the brain. The reason is because they can’t metabolize it for energy.

Austin McGuffie (30:26):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (30:27):

Neurons don’t use fructose, but astrocytes actually do. But what they do, fructose gets in the way of an enzyme in the brain called glutamine synthetase. Now this is complicated. I’m going to do my best to explain it.

Dr. Robert Lustig (30:47):

There is a neurotransmitter in the brain called glutamate. It’s like what accent is, monosodium, glutamate. And everybody got upset about glutamate because they thought it was actually harming people’s brains. Glutamate is an excitatory neurotransmitter and chronic glutamate over signaling can cause neuronal cell deaths. And it can certainly cause abnormal behavior. Okay? So keeping your glutamate in check is probably a pretty good idea.

Austin McGuffie (31:25):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (31:26):

Now, glutamate can be converted to glutamine through this enzyme called glutamine synthetase. Glutamine synthetase is inhibited by fructose in those astrocytes.

Austin McGuffie (31:42):

Mm.

Dr. Robert Lustig (31:43):

Right? Now, if you’re not turning the glutamate into glutamine, the glutamine, by the way, turns out to be the substrate that the brain uses to make the other neurotransmitter in the brain called GABA, gamma-Aminobutyric acid, which is the calm down neurotransmitter.

Austin McGuffie (32:05):

Wow.

Dr. Robert Lustig (32:06):

So with fructose, what you end up with is more glutamate and less GABA. And so what you’ve got is you’ve got an excitatory neurotransmitter that is not offset by the inhibitory neurotransmitter. And so the fact is, it could cause, and we think it does cause behavior issues, anger issues, irritability, and trouble concentrating.

Austin McGuffie (32:34):

And that would explain a correlation between the rise in chronic illness and the rise of being diagnosed with ADD or ADHD or other personality.

Dr. Robert Lustig (32:43):

Absolutely.

Austin McGuffie (32:44):

Yikes.

Dr. Robert Lustig (32:45):

Indeed, now, food industry say, “Well, wait a second. But sugar is energy. It’s helping your mitochondria.” But it’s not. Okay. Yes, if you put it in a bomb calorimeter, it will explode at four calories per gram. That’s true. But your brain’s not a bomb calorimeter. But if it’s inhibiting mitochondrial ATP production, then you are actually depriving your brain of the chemical energy it needs to operate. And those excitatory neuro transmitters are going great guns.

Austin McGuffie (33:22):

Yikes.

Dr. Robert Lustig (33:22):

So you are actually putting your brain at a major disadvantage.

Austin McGuffie (33:28):

Yeah.

Dr. Robert Lustig (33:30):

So the food industry says quick energy and that’s not quite true.

Austin McGuffie (33:36):

Exactly.

Dr. Robert Lustig (33:37):

It is energy if you burned it in a fire. It is not energy if you burn it in a brain. So this is part of why understanding nutrition is so important.

Austin McGuffie (33:53):

Very important, which brings me to the next question. So I’m a father. Let’s just say I’m a random father. The average father-

Dr. Robert Lustig (34:01):

You are not exactly random, Austin.

Austin McGuffie (34:04):

Okay. Well, I’m not random to you. Well, let’s say we’re speaking of a random father in America and his kids are addicted to sugar, but he wants to do better. What’s the first step?

Dr. Robert Lustig (34:16):

Right. So the thing that people do not understand is that sugar is addictive.

Austin McGuffie (34:24):

Yeah.

Dr. Robert Lustig (34:24):

That fructose molecule is addictive. In the same way alcohol is addictive. Now, it’s not addictive in everyone. Just like alcohol’s not addictive in everyone. All right? 40% of Americans are teetotalers, won’t touch the stuff. 40% are social drinkers, can pick up a beer and put it down. I went out with a bunch of friends yesterday and had a beer and put it down. No big deal. Okay? But 20% of adults have an alcohol problem. 10% are binge drinkers and 10% are hardcore alcoholics. That’s what the datas show. All right?

Austin McGuffie (34:58):

Yes.

Dr. Robert Lustig (34:58):

Now, what distinguishes the people who are alcoholics from the people who are social drinkers? We still don’t know. No-one’s figured out what the genetics of that is or what the environmental cues for that are yet. We just know that some people are and some people aren’t.

Austin McGuffie (35:16):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Robert Lustig (35:17):

Well, likely the same is true for sugar. So there are kids who are going to be social sugar eaters, and they’re going to be other kids who are going to be sugar addicts. And what is it that leads to one kid being one and one kid being the other? We still don’t know.

Austin McGuffie (35:37):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (35:37):

We don’t know what those issues are. One thing we know is that stress is a major one. And whether it’s the adverse childhood experiences laying down, altered neural circuitry early? Or is it cortisol metabolism? We just don’t know yet what does that. We do know that the more stress you’re under, the more likely you are to be a sugar addict. That we do.

Austin McGuffie (36:00):

That’s insane.

Dr. Robert Lustig (36:02):

So let’s say your kid is a sugar addict. Okay? And most parents should know that.

Austin McGuffie (36:10):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (36:11):

Food industry will tell you, “Oh, there’s no such thing.” Even some scientists will tell you, “There’s no such thing.” But I’ve written papers and papers and so have my colleagues. If you have any questions about this, you should pick up Nicole Avena’s books, Why Diets Fail, in terms of understanding the whole concept of sugar addiction. There are a lot of books on sugar addiction now. There are a lot of people on this train right now. Okay? Anyway, what can you do?

Austin McGuffie (36:41):

What can we do?

Dr. Robert Lustig (36:42):

Right. That’s the question. So a lot of people say, “Well, let’s try diet sweeteners.” That’s one option.

Austin McGuffie (36:50):

Okay.

Dr. Robert Lustig (36:51):

Now are diet sweeteners good? Are they? Well, that’s a question. Are they?

Austin McGuffie (36:57):

Do we know?

Dr. Robert Lustig (36:59):

So I used to say we didn’t know, but actually we sort of do know now. Here’s what I can say. The toxicity of one Coca-Cola equals the toxicity of two diet Coca-Colas. Half is bad.

Austin McGuffie (37:14):

Right, okay.

Dr. Robert Lustig (37:15):

Now half is bad does not mean good, it means half is bad.

Austin McGuffie (37:19):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (37:20):

So now that thing is that because people say, “Oh, but it’s no calories.” Then they can have five diet Coca-Colas, so it ends up being worse rather than better.

Austin McGuffie (37:32):

Hmm.

Dr. Robert Lustig (37:33):

So you say, “Wait a second, but there’s no fructose in that diet Coca-Cola. That diet sweetener is not fructose and not being metabolized for calories. It’s not even affecting glutamine synthesize. Why should it be a problem?” And the answer is now we have the data to show that these diet sweeteners actually cause changes in the intestinal microbiome because changes in the bacteria in the intestine, because inflammation in the intestine by themselves. And that inflammation leads to a phenomenon called leaky gut.

Austin McGuffie (38:12):

Exactly. Which is tearing a lot of people up right now.

Dr. Robert Lustig (38:15):

That’s right. And the way you know that leaky gut’s a problem is, because leaky gut is behind the rise in inflammatory bowel disease, the rise in irritable bowel syndrome, the rise in allergy and the rise in autoimmune disease.

Austin McGuffie (38:33):

It’s also responsible for the rise in profitability of Tums or any other [crosstalk 00:38:38].

Dr. Robert Lustig (38:37):

Of course, of course. So what people don’t understand is that your intestine is figuratively, not literally, but figuratively outside your body. What’s inside your intestine is supposed to stay inside your intestine, because it’s outside your body. The goal is for the stuff that’s in your intestine not to get into your bloodstream, unless it’s nutrients that seep across slowly. But most of what’s there in the intestine is supposed to go out in your poop, not enter your body. Well, there are cells in your intestine that are joined together like so, by proteins called tight junctions. These tight junctions basically are a barrier and they’re keeping all the bad junk in your intestine, out of your body. And so the integrity of these tight junctions is super important to your health. Well, there are things that make those tight junctions untight, loosen up or even destroy them. And unfortunately, sugar’s one of them.

Austin McGuffie (39:51):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Robert Lustig (39:52):

Emulsifiers, which are in all sorts of ultra processed food, to keep fat and water together is another one of them.

Austin McGuffie (40:01):

Mm.

Dr. Robert Lustig (40:02):

Okay. And we’re learning about even other things that are in food causing specific problems with leaky gut and this is the integrity of the intestine.

Austin McGuffie (40:14):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (40:14):

And so we’re finding out that all of these things in our ultra processed food supply are ultimately correlated, and now we have data for causation, at least in animals for all of these various intestinally derived problems, including behavior changes. Because turns out those tight junctions are not just in the intestine. Turns out they’re in the brain too.

Austin McGuffie (40:40):

Yeah.

Dr. Robert Lustig (40:41):

A blood brain barrier. Same tight junctions. So if you’ve got problems in your intestine, yeah you’ve got problems in your brain too.

Austin McGuffie (40:51):

No kidding. So for that same dad, let’s say he did get his child off the Coca-Cola and he went to diet Coke, which is not good, but half is bad.

Dr. Robert Lustig (41:01):

Half is bad.

Austin McGuffie (41:02):

Okay, so I’m going to keep resurrecting your words here. But in that same podcast, you have so many gems in that podcast by the way. But you talked about how to communicate a concept to somebody and you gave the example of a brick wall being a barrier and to get to the other side, you either blow it up, you walk around it or you dismantle it piece by piece.

Dr. Robert Lustig (41:22):

Right.

Austin McGuffie (41:22):

Is taking your child off of Coca-Cola and putting him on diet Coke and maybe slowly winning him off, do you think that would be equivalent to dismantling that wall brick by brick?

Dr. Robert Lustig (41:32):

Yep, I do. So I really like the analogy of when you’re trying to reach someone who has a different idea than you, how do you impart that idea? Because part of one of the reasons why you believe certain ideas is because you have certain belief systems and people challenge those ideas. They’re challenging your belief system. Most people don’t want their belief systems challenged.

Austin McGuffie (41:55):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (41:57):

That’s just the nature of people and it’s particularly the nature now, what’s going on. So how do you do it? Well, you can try blowing a hole in it and that almost invariably does not work. All it does is just raise defenses more. You can try walking around the wall. But what if the wall’s circular? What if the people or a person’s inside a circular wall? You can just keep walking and walking. We see that happen a lot in Washington DC right now.

Austin McGuffie (42:27):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (42:28):

Or you can dismantle it by brick and reassemble it with you on the other side of the wall. And that’s what I try to do. Now, the way you do that is with cognitive information, but also visceral information. You need both.

Austin McGuffie (42:42):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (42:43):

Right? It’s got to be like a one, two punch. And in order to do that, you have to know your stuff. And the problem is most people don’t know their stuff, so it doesn’t go anywhere. One of the reasons I believe I’ve been successful in making a case about sugar and toxicity is that I do know my stuff and I provide both the cognitive information along with the visceral information to go with it. In order to provide the visceral information, you have to make it personal. So you have to explain to people what’s in it for them.

Austin McGuffie (43:17):

Is that an approach that we should be taking with our kids?

Dr. Robert Lustig (43:20):

Absolutely. Absolutely. We just remember though that kids only do what their parents tell them. And kids don’t have access to everything in the store unless the parent brings it to them.

Austin McGuffie (43:36):

Exactly.

Dr. Robert Lustig (43:37):

So when you’re a pediatrician, you realize you don’t have one patient, you have two. You have the kid and you have the parent. You have to educate both of them.

Austin McGuffie (43:50):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (43:51):

If only educate one and not the other, all that will do is create conflict. All that will do is create ranker. And all that will do is end up with the kid either hiding the candy bar wrappers underneath the bed or the parent eating the cookies off from the garage, whatever it is, it’s not a good scene.

Austin McGuffie (44:14):

Right. I can be completely honest. Both of those situations have happened in my house, except I was the parent eating the cookies in the garage. And my son was the kid hiding the candy bars under his pillow at night because he was hungry and he has access to it via the neighborhood that we live in, bending machines.

Dr. Robert Lustig (44:30):

Right.

Austin McGuffie (44:31):

The most random stuff.

Dr. Robert Lustig (44:32):

A kid has to feel like they’re being supported.

Austin McGuffie (44:35):

That’s it. Exactly. Do you think that they’re capable of guiding themselves, going back to the model of self-directed learning. Do you think children are capable of guiding themselves through getting proper nutrients of not eating food they’re not supposed to, or shouldn’t be?

Dr. Robert Lustig (44:50):

They are capable of it if you educate them to do so.

Austin McGuffie (44:54):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Robert Lustig (44:55):

Now, if you let the food industry educate them, then they’re not capable because then they think that breakfast cereal is good nutrition. It requires being exposed early on. It requires understanding from a very early age. It requires a love of savory food, which means that you have to start very early. You may even have to start in utero before the baby’s even born. There’s some data out of the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia that suggests that actually what the mother eats, determines the baby’s taste buds.

Austin McGuffie (45:35):

Mm. That’s cool.

Dr. Robert Lustig (45:36):

So it may be that you’re a sugar addict before you’re even out.

Austin McGuffie (45:41):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (45:41):

All bets are off.

Austin McGuffie (45:43):

Exactly.

Dr. Robert Lustig (45:44):

These are complex things. What it means is, that you can’t just change kids’ food, you got to change all her parents.

Austin McGuffie (45:50):

Exactly.

Dr. Robert Lustig (45:51):

And then parents have to understand and why you’re doing that. The thing is when you explain to people why you’re doing things, usually they go along and they give you license to do so. This is when you don’t explain it, that’s when you get the pushback.

Austin McGuffie (46:08):

So it sounds like the number one takeaway is for children or for parents who want their kids to be healthy is, you have to do it first?

Dr. Robert Lustig (46:14):

Yeah.

Austin McGuffie (46:15):

There’s no other way around educating yourself?

Dr. Robert Lustig (46:17):

You have to think it’s important enough for you to do if you want you kid to do it.

Austin McGuffie (46:22):

Right. I remember in a previous conversation, you mentioned that compliancy, the compliant rates were low in practice with children’s who you prescribed a certain plan. What was that cutoff time where compliance dropped and what were the main contributing factors?

Dr. Robert Lustig (46:39):

I’m not sure what you mean [crosstalk 00:46:41].

Austin McGuffie (46:41):

In your Pediatric endocrinology Practice.

Dr. Robert Lustig (46:43):

Oh, in the clinic? In the clinic.

Austin McGuffie (46:46):

Yeah, in the clinic. I’m sorry.

Dr. Robert Lustig (46:46):

Yeah, yeah. We studied our program and basically if the kids were big sugar consumers, in the terms of sugar, sweet and beverages, then basically all the other things we did in clinic didn’t work.

Austin McGuffie (46:58):

Didn’t work. Okay.

Dr. Robert Lustig (46:58):

Okay. And the reason was because those mitochondria being poisoned.

Austin McGuffie (47:02):

Exactly.

Dr. Robert Lustig (47:03):

And any effects that we tried to do better didn’t work because they had this toxin [board 00:47:10], they had to get clean first.

Austin McGuffie (47:11):

Right.

Dr. Robert Lustig (47:12):

And so, yeah. We found that sugar consumption was a primary inhibitor of weight-loss and of improved insulin sensitivity, irrespective of anything else we did. So, that had to come first. Which is why I tell everybody, the first thing you have to do is just get every sugar beverage out of the house. That has to be everyone’s first move.

Austin McGuffie (47:36):

That was my next question is, walking into somebody’s house where you are like the top [inaudible 00:47:41] that you see, it’s like, “Throw this away right now.”

Dr. Robert Lustig (47:44):

The sodas?

Austin McGuffie (47:45):

Soda, that’s it.

Dr. Robert Lustig (47:46):

That’s got to be number one. And the juices. The sodas and the juices. If it’s liquid, it can’t have sugar in it.

Austin McGuffie (47:51):

Hmm.

Dr. Robert Lustig (47:52):

Nature did not do that.

Austin McGuffie (47:53):

Right, exactly.

Dr. Robert Lustig (47:54):

Nature didn’t put sugar in any liquids. Okay. Only people did that.

Austin McGuffie (47:59):

Got you. One last question for you, Rob. Not related to anything we just talked about, but you have completely waged war on sugar. Is there a delicacy that is worth crossing enemy lies for you?

Dr. Robert Lustig (48:11):

Oh yeah. Well, I have my weakness.

Austin McGuffie (48:18):

Okay.

Dr. Robert Lustig (48:18):

I do. I do. I have the thing that basically puts me under the table.

Austin McGuffie (48:27):

That’s so funny.

Dr. Robert Lustig (48:28):

I’ve said it before, this isn’t new. I’ve said it on other podcasts.

Austin McGuffie (48:33):

Okay.

Dr. Robert Lustig (48:33):

The thing that I have no control, I just lose complete control is a piece of Junior’s Cheesecake.

Austin McGuffie (48:42):

It’s cheesecake?

Dr. Robert Lustig (48:44):

No, no, not any cheese.

Austin McGuffie (48:45):

It’s Junior’s cheesecake.

Dr. Robert Lustig (48:47):

Junior’s cheese cake.

Austin McGuffie (48:48):

Is that only local to San Francisco?

Dr. Robert Lustig (48:50):

No, that’s new York’s city.

Austin McGuffie (48:51):

It’s New York. Okay.

Dr. Robert Lustig (48:52):

From Brooklyn originally and their other Juniors’ is in 44th and Broadway in Manhattan. I can’t manage. And bread pudding with whiskey sauce is close, but now that I’m gluten free, that one’s easier to manage.

Austin McGuffie (49:08):

Gotcha. So it’s the cheesecake? So safe to say, anytime you’re in New York, it’s going to be [crosstalk 00:49:13].

Dr. Robert Lustig (49:12):

I’m going to have a problem. Yeah.

Austin McGuffie (49:16):

Any parting words for any parents? Last parting words.

Dr. Robert Lustig (49:18):

Yeah, bottom line is real food works.

Austin McGuffie (49:23):

Yeah.

Dr. Robert Lustig (49:24):

Now the problem with real food is number one, it’s more expensive.

Austin McGuffie (49:30):

Yeah. We didn’t get a chance to touch on that.

Dr. Robert Lustig (49:33):

Sure. And there are reasons it’s more expensive, but it doesn’t have to be. It doesn’t have to be. In fact, there are ways to prepare real food that end up costing less than what it costs to prepare ultra processed food. My cookbook that I wrote with my colleague, Cindy Gershen, called Fat Chance Cookbook, explains how to do that. And in fact, that it does not have to be more expensive. It also takes more time to prepare, and that is true. And so you have to think that that’s a valuable use of your time. And a lot of people, when they’re working two, three jobs. They may not feel like they have that capacity. And there’s no question. This is a major problem in our is that people don’t feel like they have the capability and the time and the wherewithal to prepare real food.

Dr. Robert Lustig (50:21):

Again, all I can say is if you don’t know how to cook, you’re hostage to the food industry for the rest of your life. Is that really what you want to do? Are you really going to abdicate your health and your pocketbook to them? Is that what you want? So real food is not cool.

Austin McGuffie (50:39):

Right, it’s not.

Dr. Robert Lustig (50:40):

Except it’s becoming cool. In fact, there are several countries now that have actually and marketing of junk food to children on TV and in print. And I think that’s amazing. Chile, for example, and obviously ultra processed food lasts longer. That’s true. Think about that though, for a minute. Why is it that ultra processed food lasts longer? Is because the bacteria can’t chew it up and make it rancid. That’s true. But wait, bacteria and mitochondria are the same. In fact, our mitochondria refurbished bacteria. The reason that the bacteria can’t chew up the ultra processed food is because it causes bacterial dysfunction.

Austin McGuffie (51:34):

Right. Yikes.

Dr. Robert Lustig (51:34):

Well, the reason that the ultra processed food causes our disease is because it’s causing mitochondrial dysfunction for the same reasons. So it is exactly why the bacteria can’t digest the food is exactly why you shouldn’t be eating it. And when realize that, “oh yeah, I’ve seen soda go flat, but I’ve never seen it go rancid,” because no bacteria will grow in there. When you start realizing that’s the reason ultra processed food stays around longer, you start to realize, “I don’t want that in my body.”

Austin McGuffie (52:12):

Yeah, if you can’t it break down outside of your body.

Dr. Robert Lustig (52:15):

That’s right. Then why would you want it to be breaking down inside your body?

Austin McGuffie (52:18):

And why would you want it to be breaking down inside of your kids’ body?

Dr. Robert Lustig (52:22):

Exactly. So that, to me, is a huge aha moment when people can wake up and say, “Yeah, right, do that.” Why would you want to put stuff that you know damages bacteria, damages mitochondria in your body? Why would you do that?

Austin McGuffie (52:43):

They just have to know first.

Dr. Robert Lustig (52:45):

They have to know.

Austin McGuffie (52:46):

When most people know, they would make the decision to do better.

Dr. Robert Lustig (52:50):

That’s right.

Austin McGuffie (52:50):

But we’re at least counting on it. Rob, as always, it’s a pleasure speaking to you.

Dr. Robert Lustig (52:56):

[inaudible 00:52:56].

Austin McGuffie (52:56):

Thank you for the masterclass. We hope that parents out there, the top takeaways here, get the juice out of the house and cook real food because it works.

Dr. Robert Lustig (53:14):

Real food works, processed food doesn’t.

Austin McGuffie (53:18):

That’s it.

Dr. Robert Lustig (53:18):

It’s just as simple, processed food is poison. Real food is food. Processed food is poison.