#254 – The writing of ‘Good Energy,’ your guide to taking charge of your metabolic health | Dr. Casey Means & Mike Haney

Writing an evidence-based nonfiction book requires time, dedication, and a true passion for the content. Dr. Casey Means and her brother Calley Means joined forces to create their book “Good Energy: The Surprising Connection Between Metabolism and Limitless Health.” Casey Means, MD, and Mike Haney discuss the book-writing process, insights into creativity and inspiration, the steps to seeking an agent and selling a book to a publisher, and the trials and tribulations along the way.

Helpful links:

• Good Energy: The Surprising Connection Between Metabolism and Limitless Health: https://www.caseymeans.com/goodenergy
• Casey Means on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drcaseyskitchen/
• Casey Means on Twitter: https://twitter.com/drcaseyskitchen
• Casey Means on Linkedn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/casey-means-md/
• Calley Means: https://calleymeans.com
• TrueMed: https://www.truemed.com
• Calley Means on Instagram: https://instagram.com/calleymeans
• Calley Means on Twitter: https://twitter.com/calleymeans
• Calley Means on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/calley-means-a29b5512/

5:47 — Bringing joy and empowerment to conversations about health

Casey Means, MD, shares the pillars of her book “Good Energy.”

And so this book is really three things. It’s a deep unpacking of the broken system from both my time inside the system as a surgeon and entrepreneur in this space. It’s also my personal story, losing my mother to metabolic disease, and as a physician, and then just an ultra-practical, actionable guide to understanding and improving your own metabolic health in a way that is very holistic but also very joyful. There’s been a lot of rigidity and deep optimization in the conversation about proactive health over the past few years. And I think what I really wanted to bring to this was a real sense of awe and joy to that conversation and really just empower people about what the subtitle says: creating limitless health on every level.

10:20 — Landing an agent

Selling a book usually requires writing a book proposal and then trying to hook an agent with it who will then seek out a publisher, but for Means, the agents came to her.

After the first Mark Hyman episode aired that I did on behalf of Levels, agents started reaching out to me. They said, “Hey, we saw your episode. Just wanted to see if you have representation.” And so that was sort of where it was. I was having these feelings and then that started happening and it was like, “Okay maybe the time is now.”

13:56 — The book proposal

Means explains the nuts and bolts of her book proposal.

The proposal is basically like a 60- to 80-page Word document that is an overview of the book, a marketing plan, a real presentation of the differentiation but also the comps in the space, and then a couple sample chapters. And so that’s what you’re going to share with the publishing houses to actually really pitch the book. That was a much lengthier process than I expected because you really want to … create a vision of how this book is both going to be different and how you’re going to bring it to market.

21:41 — The challenges of keeping content clear and accessible

Means shares the process of incorporating storytelling into writing about health.

I think just incorporating as much storytelling as possible for me as someone who’s been very much in the academic world and who is just obsessed with everything being so highly referenced and mechanisms being explained in detail … The book isn’t necessarily to be the most comprehensive metabolic health textbook that’s ever been written that shows that we are clear on every single pathway. It’s to actually help people live a better life. And so how do you do that? I think you do that through metaphor, through storytelling, actually through simplicity in a lot of ways.

29:01 — On collaboration

Means joined forces with her brother Calley Means to help bring the book to fruition.

I felt that I couldn’t write this book alone because obviously we were doing so much at Levels and things were crazy. So having a partner in that whom I fully trusted with my personal stories and who was evangelized in the same way that I was through the loss of a parent that was preventable. I think it was just absolutely a perfect thing. So it kind of came about really organically, and the book wouldn’t have I think ever come to fruition without us doing it together, because I would have probably gotten hung up on my own busyness and even limiting beliefs and all sorts of stuff—and to have his fierceness and power to push things along.

30:06 — The writing process has a lot of moving parts

Setting internal deadlines and maintaining accountability is crucial while writing a book.

We’re both not the most organized people in the world. We’re both vision people. So it’s been kind of grinding it out and really just staying in very, very close touch. One thing that was wonderful is that we both really benefit off hard deadlines. So we created a lot of deadlines for ourselves, just internal deadlines for certain parts of the proposal and finishing the proposal. And then once we were writing the book, like different chapters … we are going to have these chapters done by this date. Having that accountability and internal deadlines is critical for us.

35: 59 — On determining your voice

The Levels team created a document outlining Means’s voice for writing for the brand. The document later proved to be a helpful guidepost in the book-writing process.

We use proper terminology. We use sophisticated language. We’re not overly conversational or use slang. We don’t want to patronize the reader. We explain mechanisms in detail. We lean in and provide the details of studies, including numbers. We don’t just hand wave. Evoke a sense of awe at the science concept where appropriate, because that’s a huge part of me, and be very direct about the problem and don’t sugarcoat the truth. And always keeping my goals in mind: I want people to be out of the doctor’s office. I want to empower people to control their own health where they can. I want to offer evidence-based real talk. And I live in total awe of food, cooking, nature, soil, the human body and mind.

43:21 — Carving out dedicated time to write

Means determined the writing process really needed her undivided attention.

It was a very valuable process to work for a couple months with a writing partner. Ultimately, though, I think because it’s my first book and it is so personal to me—my mother, my story, my history of being like incredibly depressed in residency and all of it—I quickly realized that I just had to write this book myself: me and Calley. And so we ended up not working with the writing partner. We worked for a couple months with them. And then I realized that I needed more dedicated time to just do this. So that’s when in early 2023, I took a few months off work and I just took a sabbatical, and that was totally necessary for me to do to finish the book. I sat in the middle of the winter in my little home in Bend, Oregon, and I sat at my desk every single day for like 13 hours a day and spent a lot of that time staring at the wall.

55:11 — A health coach can help you stay accountable

A manuscript deadline can overtake your life quickly. That’s why Means chose to engage with health coaching to keep health a big priority.

I think during that time I actually needed to get extra support I think to stay accountable to the health stuff. This was such a big thing ,and there was such a big deadline that it was like everything else could come second… So I hired an amazing coach, this amazing woman, Monica Nelson, who was with me during this entire period, who helped me on sleep coaching, nutrition coaching, and was my personal trainer over zoom.

1:07:45 — The magic of putting a book into the world

Writing a book is in and of itself a transfer of energy.

Time does not scale; content does scale. So it’s hopefully a way to like scale your light I really believe that each of us is this unique biochemical form through which energy can flow through. And there are all these different ways to create in the world, but a book is one that is just eminently scalable, transferable, movable. And so that just feels really, really good. Again, there are so many ways to create art and to take what’s inside of you and put it outside of you to share.

1:13:03 — On facing feedback

Means recognizes that positive change rarely gets made without pushback or criticism.

I’m sure there’s going to be pushback from a lot of different sources, and I welcome it because this is about starting a conversation to push our country forward, our world forward in a positive way. And I don’t think you’re ever going to be able to do that without some elbows being thrown. And so that’s going to be a fascinating experience that I think I’m continuing to just build my mental and physical fortitude to just really be ready for that.

Casey Means (00:00:06):

I really believe that each of us is this unique biochemical form and is a unique biochemical form through which energy can flow through, and there’s all these different ways to create in the world, but a book is one that it’s just eminently scalable, transferable, movable, and that just feels really, really good. I think there’s so many ways to create art and to take what’s inside of you and put it outside of you to share.

(00:00:32):

But that particular thing of doing that, taking what’s inside of you and putting it outside of you to hopefully spread light in the world is an incredible feeling that I want everyone to be able to feel, and in a way, to slow down enough and set boundaries in their life enough that they can do that process.

Ben Grynol (00:00:58):

I’m Ben Grynol, part of the early startup team here at Levels. We’re building tech that helps people to understand their metabolic health, and along the way, we have conversations with thought leaders about research-backed information so you can take your health into your own hands. This is a whole new level.

(00:01:28):

So this is a pretty special episode to many of us here at Levels, specifically, Dr. Casey Means one of the co-founders of Levels and Haney, Mike Haney, that’s our editorial director, as many of you are probably familiar with by now on a whole new level quite frequently. But the two of them sat down, and they discussed Casey’s new book that’s coming out, Good Energy.

(00:01:53):

Rather than go deep into Good Energy and what it’s all about, we thought it’d be a good opportunity to dive into the writing process for Good Energy. We had a bit of a different lens on this book as Casey underwent the writing process. We saw it come together from August 2021 until its launch in 2024, and it was pretty amazing to watch it all unfold in real time. It was one of those things where we were along for the ride very much with Casey, and it was very exciting for our whole team to see everything progress.

(00:02:25):

But some of the things that are covered, like how does a book come to be? What does that process look like? We find out from Casey, agents reach out. They express interest, and then she started pitching ideas for the book and writing a proposal, which ended up getting shopped around to different publishers. Eventually, she started the writing process and went through editing and multiple iterations later.

(00:02:48):

Here we go. May 14, 2024, the book is coming out, or depending on when you’re listening to it, the book might already be out. As you can hear in this episode, Casey and Haney have got great chemistry. They worked very closely together for many years, and it was really cool to listen to them dive deep into the book and everything pertaining to it.

(00:03:09):

Anyway, really fun episode. No need to wait. Bit of a change up from our metabolic health content, but here we go. We all love Casey. We all love Haney. The two of them together, absolute magic. Here’s where they kick things off.

Mike Haney (00:03:27):

Welcome, Casey.

Casey Means (00:03:29):

Mike, it’s so good to see you.

Mike Haney (00:03:30):

It feels a little strange to welcome you since I came to your town to do this, and you’re more familiar with the studio, and you sometimes host the show. So this is really more of a chat between colleagues than a host situation.

Casey Means (00:03:39):

I’ve been so looking forward to this.

Mike Haney (00:03:41):

Yeah, me too. I thought it might be useful just to set up initially why I’m talking to you and to note to sort of signpost for anybody listening to this, that there’s this part one of a two-part series on the Good Energy book. We’re going to do an episode with you and Rob Lustig in a couple of weeks, which will be questions from members, Rob and you chatting more about the content of the book.

(00:04:06):

What we’re going to do today is talk more about the process of writing the book. The reason I jumped on this is because I’m the editorial director. I’m the writer-in-residence at Levels, the journalist, and you hired me three and a half years ago to basically do this. So this feels like a very natural, I don’t want to say bookend to our relationship, but it feels like a natural milestone in our relationship.

Casey Means (00:04:29):

It does. I feel like you’ve been a part of really every step of this process, so it’s pretty cool to be chatting about it now that it’s actually done.

Mike Haney (00:04:35):

Yeah, definitely.

Casey Means (00:04:37):

Yeah.

Mike Haney (00:04:38):

So I thought because we’re not going to dive too much into the book and because we’re planning to release this the day the book comes out, so most people listening to this, at least initially, will not have yet read the book, why don’t we just start with a description of what the book is? Give us the overview of what Good Energy is.

Casey Means (00:04:54):

So Good Energy is, I think, really a re-imagination of what the future of health for America can look like. It is a call to action for both individuals and the system to really examine how our system is broken right now. Patients are getting sicker every year. The more we spend on healthcare, the sicker we’re getting. It’s not working.

(00:05:17):

The thing is though, we have every reason to be really optimistic because we know the answers, and we really just need to build a system that actually focuses on bringing those to fruition. We know that metabolic dysfunction is the root cause of almost every chronic disease and symptom we’re facing in the United States. That is clear from the research. However, we’re not practicing medicine in a way that actually approaches metabolic health.

(00:05:37):

But we know that. We know the science. We also have incredible tools and technology now that can give people access to real-time metabolic health information, like what we’re doing at Levels, plus, there’s so many amazing direct-to-consumer companies that are giving people much more empowerment over their biomarkers and health. So this is really such an exciting time in human history to live our healthiest and longest lives possible.

(00:06:02):

But we do need to shift the arrow of how we’re practicing medicine right now to usher in what could be a really bright future. If we keep going down the path that we are right now with the current approach of conventional Western healthcare, there’s literally no amount of money that we could spend that would create healthier Americans. So this book is really three things.

(00:06:23):

It’s a deep unpacking of the broken system from both my time inside the system as a surgeon and entrepreneur in this space. It’s also my personal story, losing my mother to metabolic disease and as a physician and then just an ultra practical, actionable guide to understanding and improving your own metabolic health in a way that is very holistic but also very joyful.

(00:06:52):

So I think there’s been a lot of rigidity and deep optimization in the conversation about proactive health over the past few years, and I think what I really wanted to bring to this was a real sense of awe and joy to that conversation and really just empower people about what the subtitle says, creating limitless health on every level.

Mike Haney (00:07:11):

It really does feel like a reflection of your point of view. It is such a distillation of all of the things that we’ve worked on the past several years, trying to get this message out in the world through Levels, of the relationship between metabolic health and X condition, the practical, what you can do with it.

(00:07:30):

But where this felt unique to me, even being as familiar as I am with the material, having lived in this space the last few years, is how much your POV comes through, how much it is a Casey take on this stuff. That vibe and that optimism and that enthusiasm, I feel like, really came through, which maybe is a good place to transition to the genesis of this idea.

(00:07:56):

As I mentioned, since I met you, because you had started the content operation at Levels, you’ve been a writer for a long time. The Casey book has always felt like an inevitability. It just felt like there’s going to be a time, of course, there is, where Casey is going to do Casey in book form. I’m curious if you felt that way at any point along this journey, that you felt this starting to brew and how it went from whatever it started as to being …

(00:08:24):

When did this become a real idea? When did it look like, yeah, we’re going to do a book?

Casey Means (00:08:32):

I have wanted to write a book since I was a child. It’s always been something I’ve wanted to do because books have been one of the things that have impacted me and my thinking more than anything else in the world. Reading, growing up, high school, college, there are these books that have been signposts in my life for helping direct me in the direction that ultimately became the next phase of my journey at every step, and so I understand the power of books.

(00:08:52):

My dad’s written about five books. My mom was an English major. Writing’s always been a part of our lives. So I actually had this Post-it on my computer for years at the bottom of my monitor that was a really short poem from this wonderful poet, Rupi Kaur, K-A-U-R. But it says, “My heart woke me crying last night. ‘How can I help?’ I begged. My heart said, ‘Write the book.’”

Mike Haney (00:09:20):

Wow.

Casey Means (00:09:21):

So there’s always been this feeling of write the book is going to come to fruition. I think where it became something that had to really burst out of me was I think after a year or two of Levels. I’d had my experience as a surgery resident really being so disillusioned by the healthcare system. Then we started the company. And then we started interacting with tens of thousands of members who, I think, were so hungry for a different way to understand their health. And then my mom passed away.

(00:09:50):

So it was this confluence of really understanding that there’s such a need and a hunger through our members and also interactions I was having, I think, on social media and just really seeing how much of a craving there was for answers, seeing just the devastating cost of ignoring the warning signs of metabolic disease and then seeing how broken the system was.

(00:10:10):

At a certain point, the poem came to fruition for me of I was woken in the middle of the night, so to speak. It’s like, “It’s time to write this book,” because this isn’t out there. This particular flavor of answer blending technology and how to use this modern technology we have, plus metabolic framework, plus systems inside behind the curtain. It became very clear.

(00:10:35):

So it was less of a conscious thing than it’s like this had to come out. It had to come out of me or I was going to explode. Ultimately though, how it practically came to fruition was after some of the first big podcasts we did for Levels. Literally, after the first Mark Hyman episode aired that I did on behalf of Levels, agents started reaching out to me. They said, “Hey, we saw your episode. Just wanted to see if you have representation.”

(00:11:11):

I was having these feelings, and then that started happening. It was like, okay, maybe the time is now, and started talking to Josh and Sam about that. But once that happened, I had a call with that agent and started learning about what is this? What is an agent? What does an agent do? What does an agent need from me?

(00:11:28):

And then when it became a reality that this was going to happen, I went on a much bigger journey to really start understanding the space. This was in August 2021. So I can talk more about that journey as well.

(00:11:53):

This is Dr. Casey Means, co-founder of Levels. If you’ve heard me talk on other podcasts before, you know that I believe that tracking your glucose and optimizing your metabolic health is really the ultimate life hack. We know that cravings, mood instability, and energy levels and weight are all tied to our blood sugar levels.

(00:12:15):

Of course, all the downstream chronic diseases that are related to blood sugar are things that we can really greatly improve our chances of avoiding if we keep our blood sugar in a healthy and stable level throughout our lifetime. So I’ve been using CGM now on and off for the past four years since we started Levels, and I have learned so much about my diet and my health.

(00:12:36):

I’ve learned the simple swaps that keep my blood sugar stable, like flax crackers instead of wheat-based crackers. I’ve learned which fruits work best for my blood sugar. I do really well with pears and apples and oranges and berries, but grapes seem to spike my blood sugar off the chart. I’m also a notorious night owl, and I’ve really learned with using Levels if I get to bed at a reasonable hour and get good quality sleep, my blood sugar levels are so much better.

(00:13:02):

That has been so motivating for me on my health journey. It’s also been helpful for me in terms of keeping my weight at a stable level much more effortlessly than it has been in the past. So you can sign up for Levels at levels.link/podcast. Now let’s get back to this episode.

Mike Haney (00:13:30):

Yeah. I’d love to dive more into that just nitty-gritty of, okay, you’ve talked to agents. You know folks who’ve written books through our advisors and some other people, so you have some familiarity with that world. But from agent to publisher to signing a deal, walk me through the specifics of how long that took. What did you learn along the way and what were you surprised about? What were lessons learned there?

Casey Means (00:13:55):

Yeah. From that first email I got from an agent, that cold outreach, which was August 2021, to signing a deal, which was about July 2022, so that was about a little under a year, basically. So what happened was once I started starting to shape the understanding of what an agent does, then I did reach out to about 10 people in my personal network, many of our advisors, and basically just asked, “Hey, can I speak with you for 20 minutes to understand just a little bit more about the book-writing process and finding an agent and about your experience with an agent?”

(00:14:33):

So I had all those meetings, and people were so kind to talk to me and give me some input about what to look for and whatnot and make some introductions. I took notes on all of those, of course, in the Level’s way. I created a database and had Notion documents for everything. But really, it was like a listening tour. Let me learn about this industry. From there, I then did have meetings with several of those agents.

(00:14:55):

It’s essentially a conversation of pitching your idea. At that point, I had a very basic rudimentary proposal, just some typed pages about what I was looking to bring into the world with this book and then get some feedback from them. So that was eight to 10 meetings in the winter of 2021. And then ultimately found someone that I really clicked with and who just really so believed in the vision of the book and after a few conversations made the decision to work together.

(00:15:32):

I ultimately had the opportunity to work with Richard Pine, who’s an incredible nonfiction literary agent, who’s Mark Hyman’s agent. He’s done some really incredible books in the space, Angela Duckworth, Arianna Huffington, Andrew Weil. So it has great nonfiction, basically transformational nonfiction and then some really amazing health books as well.

(00:15:57):

That was December. And then December to the summer was basically working together with him and my brother to create the proposal, which is a huge, huge process that I think is very valuable because you’re really refining the concept. But the proposal is basically a 60 to 80-page Word document that is an overview of the book, a marketing plan, a real presentation of the differentiation, but also the comps in the space, and then a couple sample chapters.

(00:16:30):

So that’s what you’re going to share with the publishing houses to actually really pitch the book. That was a much lengthier process than I expected because you really want to create something that, just like with a pitch deck or something, you’re going to really be trying to create a vision of how this book is both going to be different and how you’re going to bring it to market.

(00:16:49):

So then summer was when the agent goes and shares this with the different publishing houses and shares the proposal, and if they’re interested, they’ll set up meetings with you. And then you do a literal one-hour verbal pitch with the different publishing houses over the course of about a week. So it’s like a VC fundraise. And then there is a literal day when they all basically put in offers if they want to put an offer in to basically represent and acquire this book.

(00:17:22):

The agent sets that date. Then that’s when there’s more of that determination of who’s going to be the publisher. So you get presented with different offers and things like that. That was over the course of about nine, 10 months. And then by summer 2022, that’s when we ultimately went with Penguin Random House and this incredible imprint there, Avery, which we just were so aligned with on an ideologic perspective.

(00:17:48):

They’re bringing in really optimistic, practical nonfiction to help create a better world. They’ve done The Book of Joy, Brene Brown, so many amazing health books, Terry Wahls, Fiber Fueled by Dr. B. And then you get a deadline, which was May 1st of the following year. So between partnering with Penguin and May 1st, that’s when the book actually gets written.

Mike Haney (00:18:16):

Wow. So when you were looking for a publisher, so you go from this germ of an idea. You work with the agent to really flesh it out and then go do these publisher meetings. Were the publisher meetings more you pitching them or them pitching you? Or was it more of a conversation to make sure you were aligned and wanting to go the same way?

(00:18:34):

How much were they responding to the pitch versus presenting their vision for what a Casey book might be taking off of your pitch?

Casey Means (00:18:44):

Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean I think it’s very much a conversation where you’re trying to find out if this is the right fit. They’ve certainly read the whole proposal and obviously responded enough to want to meet with you. They get a lot of proposals, I think, where they don’t schedule a meeting, and so there’s definitely interest. But there’s always something different than the page and actually the author sharing the spirit behind what it is.

(00:19:10):

So I think that’s your opportunity as an author to really share the energy and the personality and the spirit behind what’s on the page because they’re going to be working with you definitely for years just to bring that one book to fruition and then potentially longer. So I think, at the end of the day, when an author’s writing a book, they are bringing something into the world that they believe just has to exist and so just really sharing that fire and that energy.

(00:19:41):

And then on the business side of it, it’s like if you’re being represented by one of the top publishing houses, a big part of it is really want to be able to see are you going to be able to be the messenger to bring this book in a big way into the world? We’re not looking for a little outcome here. So is it the right fit in terms of do they believe that you’re going to be the messenger and the advocate who can push this book as far and wide into the world?

(00:20:10):

That’s my perception of part of what that meeting is is to really share that sense of intensity and seriousness of you wanting to bring this into the world. As you know from working with me, it’s like metabolic health is what I live and breathe, and it’s my dream for the world is that we can focus our healthcare system and our choices around this. So I just really brought that passion.

(00:20:35):

And then of course, learning a little about their team and what that relationship is going to look like. So that’s how the conversations go, in my experience.

Mike Haney (00:20:45):

So now that you’ve been through this process at least once, if somebody were to call you in the same position you were in two years ago, having conversations with Rob or with Mark Hyman, what would you tell somebody now?

Casey Means (00:20:56):

Oh, my gosh. I would tell them to absolutely do it. It’s been probably one of the best experiences my whole life. I would say if you feel that you need to write a book, I can’t recommend it highly enough. I only have one experience, which is my own, which is working with an agent and working with a publisher. I didn’t choose to self-publish.

(00:21:22):

I chose to work with a team, and I think that’s been incredible because, especially as a first-time author, having people to really help show you the way who have tons of experience is incredibly valuable and legitimizing, I think, to have that kind of representation. But just really find people who really connect with the topic and that it’s also meaningful for them to bring this topic into the world.

(00:21:51):

Both my publisher and the team and my agent deeply care about this issue, and that, of course, is very important to me because alignment is so critically important to me in all aspects of my life. So really finding people that want to also bring this mission into the world and believe it’s going to really help things.

Mike Haney (00:22:09):

Yeah. Well, let’s talk about the actual writing of the book then. So you get a deadline. You’ve got a deal. You obviously started to tackle some of it in the pitch. I think you’d shared with me a very early version of the pitch.

(00:22:22):

I’m just curious maybe as a place to start, how did the idea and the focus evolve from really throughout the process, from maybe starting to put that pitch together and writing a table of contents and a couple of sample chapters to what it ultimately became?

Casey Means (00:22:37):

I would say the core thesis of the book did not change very much throughout the process. My brother and I, my brother’s my co-author, were quite clear on the core message. I think what did change a bit throughout the process was some of the framing. I think that one interesting anecdote is that in the very beginning of writing, we had a bit more of a title that was, I would say, skewed negative.

(00:23:08):

Initially, we were going to call the book, Save Yourself, and ultimately now it’s called Good Energy, which I’m so happy about that. But that was actually a long conversation with our agent who was like, “There’s just different energies that you can bring to a title, one that’s a bit more focusing on the negative, and one that’s really drawing people more towards the promise and the opportunity and that people can move towards rather than be moving away from.”

(00:23:36):

Save yourself has a bit of a more scary … I think a lot of what in terms of framing evolving over time, it’s just always about putting the reader first. This is about mission and impact, so how can everything be framed in a way that can really serve the reader the best? So that was something that really evolved. And then I think just incorporating as much storytelling as possible.

(00:24:02):

For me, as someone who’s been very much in the academic world and who is just obsessed with everything being so highly referenced and mechanisms being explained in detail, which we work together, so you know this. It’s like that is good. What is the purpose of the book? The book isn’t necessarily to be the most comprehensive metabolic health textbook that’s ever been written, that shows that we are clear on every single pathway. It’s to actually help people live a better life. So how do you do that?

(00:24:36):

I think you do that through metaphor, through storytelling, actually through simplicity in a lot of ways. So that was actually a tough journey for me, in a way, being the scientific, academic person. I had a lot of Post-its around my desk while I was writing. But one of them was really about it’s always reminding me of the mission and really putting the reader first.

(00:24:57):

This is not about me. It’s about taking this message and making it as impactful as possible. So sometimes that actually includes cutting some of the parts that you might scientifically find so interesting to unpack, but might not actually be the thing that inspires someone to truly understand the concept.

Mike Haney (00:25:15):

I’m curious about that journey of including so much personal anecdote, both from your time as a surgeon, going through your mother’s passing, experiences you’ve had along the way. It’s very engaging. It does help it be impactful. It very much doesn’t feel like a textbook because every chapter at least opens with it. In some cases, there’s a lot more of it, some kind of personal anecdote.

(00:25:39):

Was that something that you knew you were going to do from the beginning, and how did you calibrate how personal to go, what details to share? Some of it is pretty, I don’t want to say raw, but it’s very honest. I feel like people are going to get to know you through this, and they’re going to know more about you than has probably been out in the world before, even as much as you’ve done in terms of podcasting. What was that journey like, deciding to share as much of yourself as you are?

Casey Means (00:26:08):

A lot of the stories got cut down. In terms of the process, I wrote this with my brother, and the book is in my voice. But one of the ways that we started was actually my brother reading a many-hundred-page document that I had written when I was a resident and so of all stories from my time as a resident and so something I did when I was a surgical resident.

(00:26:34):

It was just an overwhelming tidal wave of experiences that I was having in the operating room and people dying. It was one of the only outlets I had to get all that emotion out of me was when I was driving home pretty much every day from my 36-hour shifts or whatever, I would voice dictate into my phone stories from the day.

(00:26:56):

I don’t know what compelled me to do that, but I think it’s like something spiritual was just basically telling me, “Put this on paper.” And then it just sat for years In a Google Doc, hundreds of stories. My brother ultimately went through that document, which was a very vulnerable experience to have my brother basically reading my journal from residency, but pulling out stories and essentially attaching them to what are the points we’re trying to make for people to really understand the system.

(00:27:26):

Where are the stories from my experience that match whatever thesis we’re trying to get through in a particular chapter? So I would say 95% of the stories that in my head I’m like, “Well, this is so important to share,” they just did not get included. A lot of what ended up making it to the book was what from my personal experience and life and challenges and what I saw can help bring alive the underlying points and theses that we believe are so important to get into the zeitgeist and really matching those experiences with what we’re trying to bring in.

(00:28:02):

So what was nice about having a co-author is that I’m so attached to every story because it’s like, in a sense, I initially was like, “I kind of want this to be more of a memoir.” But that’s not what needed to be written. So it’s having an impartial observer basically say, “This is not going to help. This is not going to help. This is not going to help, but this story will help make this point.” That was so helpful because I was too attached to some of it.

(00:28:27):

So I think having a third party or a second party in terms of my brother was so valuable in that regard of being a little ruthless about what to include and what not. So yeah.

Mike Haney (00:28:41):

When did you decide to bring Calley into the process? Was that always something you were going to do or where did that idea come up? And then how did that evolve? What did that look like?

Casey Means (00:28:52):

It really came to fruition right after my mom died. In terms of the timeline, she died in January of 2021, and then that was in such an interesting time. It’s just so funny. Hindsight’s 20/20, right? Looking at your life and it’s all of this just happening, unfolding in such an interesting way. My brother had just sold his company, which was a custom wedding dress company he had with my sister-in-law that they started just out of business school.

(00:29:18):

They had just sold their company to David’s Bridal, and he was really figuring out the next thing he was bringing into the world. After my mom passed away from basically the end result of 40 years of missed warning signs of metabolic disease and my brother interacting so deeply with the healthcare system and just seeing so up close and personal a lot of the things I’d been talking about theoretically for years, he became, I think, incredibly evangelized about how broken our system is.

(00:29:51):

It really helped him tie together some things that he’d actually seen earlier in his career. He had been a consultant for food and pharma and, in his own way, seen inside the system, how broken it is from the side of consulting and PR in the food and pharma industry.

(00:30:09):

And then that paired with this personal experience with my mom and seeing how the healthcare system, that they’re all kind of playing from the same playbook, which is basically unfortunately this devil’s bargain of make people sick and addicted to food and then profit off their illness and then be silent while all these underlying issues develop. Tell everyone that they’re separate things, and send them to a million specialists.

(00:30:33):

And then the lethal diagnosis comes, and all of a sudden, everyone swoops in to get their piece of that. My mom developed cancer and only at that moment did the whole healthcare system essentially activate. I think he was just really astounded by where were all these people for 40 years as she was racking up the comorbidities that ultimately led to cancer?

(00:30:58):

So there was this perfect storm of timing where he was really becoming so passionate about this mission and evangelized in his own right. I was starting to think about with all the work we were doing at Levels, this opportunity to put it together into something cohesive, and then things came out of the woodwork to bring it all together. I felt that I couldn’t write this book alone because, obviously, we were doing so much at Levels, and things were crazy.

(00:31:26):

So having a partner in that who I both fully trusted with my personal stories and who was evangelized in the same way that I was through the loss of a parent that was preventable, I think it was just absolutely a perfect thing. So it came about really organically, and the book wouldn’t have, I think, ever come to fruition without us doing it together because I would have probably gotten hung up on my own busyness and even limiting beliefs and all sorts of stuff.

(00:31:57):

To have his fierceness and power to push things along was absolutely critical, and then, of course, his perspective.

Mike Haney (00:32:04):

How did it practically work with you two working together? How did you share the writing?

Casey Means (00:32:10):

Man, I mean it’s really just been, I would say, daily texting, emailing, calling. We’ve basically just been in constant communication for the past two years to bring this to fruition. We’re both not the most organized people in the world. We’re both pretty vision people, and so it’s been grinding it out and really just staying in very, very close touch.

(00:32:38):

One thing that was wonderful is that we both really, I think, benefit off hard deadlines. So we created a lot of deadlines for ourselves, just internal deadlines for certain parts of the proposal and finishing the proposal. And then once we were writing the book, different chapters, we are going to have these chapters done by this state. Having that accountability and internal deadlines was critical for us.

(00:33:00):

And then a lot of it was like where do we feel like inspiration is flowing in each of us? So if I was really feeling like, okay, the next few weeks I’m going to focus on chapter five, six, the food chapters, he’s going to really work on the systems issue chapters, and then we’ll basically get something down and trade and spend a couple weeks basically working on each other’s. It was a lot of that.

(00:33:23):

So taking lead and then passing off and ultimately, 100 versions later, we have the final product. But for us, it was very fluid, I would say, of just constant communication and a lot of internal deadlines and just sharing things back and forth and being a set of eyes on each other’s work constantly.

Mike Haney (00:33:49):

I know you guys were close before, but I have to imagine this brought you closer. Or was there a point in the book writing process where you guys were like, “You know what, I need a month away from you?”

Casey Means (00:33:55):

Yeah. It’s a pretty wild process to go on with a sibling, to bring a book about your mother into the world and a book that’s in my voice, which has been so interesting. It’s definitely been a growth experience for both of us. I think anytime you work with someone closely at a company or anywhere, it can be such a great forge to birth the next version of yourself if you choose to look at it as a growth experience.

(00:34:23):

We did some therapy together while doing the book because it’s like we’re working together all the time. It’s pretty high pressure. We both had other jobs. I had a full-time job with Levels. He also started a company, TrueMed, while we were writing the book, so just making sure our communication was as productive as possible. We even got some outside help with that, which was amazing. I just have so much respect for him for being the type of person who wants to always try and cultivate the best possible communication.

(00:34:50):

So I think the beauty of the project though was that it was always a way to both honor my mother and her journey, which unfortunately ended prematurely, but because that was a centerpiece of our work, I think that helped both of us continually rise to the occasion of bringing our best selves because we want to, of course, make her proud and honor her memory and her sacrifices.

(00:35:24):

I think when you’re working on something that’s really mission-focused, it really helps cut out a lot of the noise. So yeah.

Mike Haney (00:35:30):

You mentioned the voice, and we talked in the beginning about how much of your voice comes through this. I was reminded of you and I worked for a while on a newsletter that you did, and I remember a lot of that was about not just the topics, but what is the voice? What is the Casey perspective uniquely to this?

(00:35:50):

Talk about the evolution of the voice or how you landed on the voice, or you could even say the sort of persona of Casey, the author of Good Energy, and that going from maybe that more not necessarily negative perspective, but maybe more cautionary perspective and really embracing that positivity and good energy vibe and then doing that with a co-author.

Casey Means (00:36:12):

Yeah. Well, I have to give so many kudos to my brother because he always wanted the book to be in my voice and always was clear about this even though he did as much or more work than me on this book. The thing that my brother was relentless about was that this is about the reader. This is about impact. So what is going to be the most valuable for the reader?

(00:36:39):

Having a book from two perspectives, that’s a little confusing. But having the book and the message coming out through my voice as a young female physician who’d had these experiences firsthand in the healthcare system, ultimately we believe that that was going to be the voice that could have the impact that we wanted. So because his focus, it’s so ego-less, it’s so focused on mission, impact, and reader clarity.

(00:37:15):

He actually, in many ways, pushed for it to be like, “This needs to be in your voice, and it needs to be very clear that this book is from you,” which I really honor in him. What was important to him was basically that impact. And then in terms of how do we get aligned with what the voice is going to be, how do we put Casey on paper? I have to give you a ton of kudos on this because I think when we were working together at Levels, one of the early things we did was create a brand voice document for Levels. We also created a brand voice document for me.

(00:37:46):

I would really highly recommend any author or writer or content creator of any kind to take the time to sit down and write a brand voice document because it clarifies what is your style when you translate it from personality to paper. I actually brought ours because I was like, “This is kind of fun to go back and look,” and it still rings true for me.

(00:38:08):

But this was what was in our document for me and which I’ve shared with so many people that I’ve worked with since then, which is, “We use proper terminology. We use sophisticated language. We’re not overly conversational or use slang. We don’t want to patronize the reader. We explain mechanisms in detail. We lean in and provide the details of studies, including numbers. We don’t just hand wave.

(00:38:32):

“Evoke a sense of awe at the science concept where appropriate because that’s a huge part of me, and be very direct about the problem and don’t sugarcoat the truth. And then always keeping my goals in mind, which is that I want people to be out of the doctor’s office. I want to empower people to control their own health where they can. I want to offer evidence-based real talk, and I live in total awe of food, cooking, nature, soil, the human body and mind, and I’m very passionate.”

(00:39:01):

So it’s like I look at those and we probably originally wrote those years ago, but it’s exactly how I am and solidifying those on paper. My executive assistant has those. My head of operations has those in the business that I have now for the book, and it just gets them on the same page. So I think that’s really valuable for people to do as an exercise, honestly, anyone.

(00:39:28):

That wasn’t something necessarily that Calley used when we were writing the book because I think he knows me well enough to just understand my voice, but it’s very helpful to create clarity around how you’re going to show up on paper. Do you have one for yourself at all for your writing or have you done that?

Mike Haney (00:39:43):

I don’t for me, but it was an important thing at Levels in the beginning. I remember when I started, and you and I talked a lot in those early days with pre-hiring, and then once I started, about that, what the voice should be. In the first content memo, it was something I really focused on is what is this? Because there’s a lot of different ways to convey this information.

(00:40:05):

There’s a very magazine-y, snappy, service-driven, can almost get to snarky, slang-y way of doing it. There’s a much more academic way of doing it that’s not conversational at all. And then there’s that, which I think the book really balances well. You mentioned the don’t sugarcoat it, be honest. There’s definitely a lot of very bracing information in the book about the system or about the dangers of some of the stuff, but suffused with a real empowerment.

(00:40:37):

I know that’s a word you and I talked about a lot, and we still try to think a lot about in the content we do of you can’t just scare people. It’s got to move to a place of empowerment and you can do something about all of this. I thought the book really nailed that, and I remember that’s something that we talked about a lot of it. The awe, I think, helps provide a kind of joy to it.

(00:41:03):

That was the other thing that came through. I was thinking about this this morning. We were having a conversation internally about members and how they eat and this balance between trying to really eat for your stable glucose versus not. Somebody referenced, “Well, people like to be healthy for a while, and then they like to have fun.” My hair stood up because I thought if Casey were part of this conversation, she would say, “There is not a distinction there. You can eat healthy and have fun.”

(00:41:31):

We should not be saying it’s either eat well or be happy. Particularly in the context of this book, I was thinking about it because the book in no way … It doesn’t feel preachy, it doesn’t feel like homework. It feels like we can embrace the joy of feeling good, being alive, having great health while eating healthy and doing all these things. So I felt like this really did nail your brand voice, all of that that we came up with.

Casey Means (00:41:59):

Thank you. Yeah, I think it’s interesting. I think that part of writing also helps you develop that voice. I think as you’re writing, when you really put something on paper that you feel like is the perfect representation of you, you can feel it inside. When it’s not exactly quite on the money, you don’t feel as good about it. So I think being really present with the book at every stage and reading every chapter, I mean I probably read every chapter 100 times at this point.

(00:42:28):

I’m like, “Is this me? Is this me, or is this anyone else?” I just recorded the audiobook, and at the end, I’m just like, “This is just me. This is me on the page.” There’s a lot of body awareness, I think, that goes into writing a book that feels authentically you and just always checking in, is this me or is there something else that I’m writing that’s coming in here that doesn’t quite feel right?

(00:42:56):

I think there’s such a process of then going out and evangelizing your book that’s, of course, after you finish the book. Then you get into marketing. So being able to feel really like it is exactly what you want to say is so important. I think exercises like reflecting on your brand voice and who you really are and how you want to show up in the world can just be a really useful thing. So I would just certainly recommend that. That is just a process for anyone who’s a creator. Create that document for yourself.

Mike Haney (00:43:25):

How about the actual process of writing? A lot of this, as you said, you and Calley both full-time jobs, Calley starting a company, such a massive undertaking. It’s not a tiny book. It’s not an unreported book. I want to talk more about the reporting because there’s a ton of it in here. Just walk me through your schedule, your practical tips for actually sitting down and doing the work.

(00:43:49):

Did you struggle with procrastination? You mentioned deadlines were important. But how did you actually get yourself to write this, and did it change at all over the course of writing it?

Casey Means (00:43:58):

Yeah. The process was really interesting. It was very challenging to find the time and motivation and everything to just sit down and actually get this done. I love deadlines. I’m glad we actually had a tight deadline, July to May basically, because it meant it just had to get done. So the way I approached it was I initially hired a ghostwriter, or a writing partner.

(00:44:30):

Again, I went on a listening tour to people who had worked with collaborators because you’ll see on a lot of books, like Peter Attia’s book says, “With Bill Gifford,” and David Perlmutter’s books say, “With Kristin Loberg.” So I reached out to a lot of people who had used collaborators and talked to them about their experiences and said, “Hey, can I spend 20 minutes picking your brain about using a writing partner?”

(00:44:52):

And then, just like with the agents, interviewed with a bunch of different people and read their writing samples and tried to get their vibe, and then ultimately I signed a contract with someone who I was going to work with for the book. The reason I did that, which is, of course, a really big financial investment and everything, is that I had so much writing and podcasts and just so much material that I thought could be fleshed into the book because we had such a detailed 80-page outline basically with the proposal and was working with Levels full-time.

(00:45:34):

So that was like, “Oh, this will be great.” It was a very valuable process to work for a couple months with a writing partner. Ultimately though, I think because this is my first book and it is so personal to me, my mother, my story, my history of being incredibly depressed in residency and all of it, I quickly realized that I just had to write this book myself, me and Calley, and so we ended up not working with the writing partner.

(00:46:03):

We worked for a couple months with them, and then it just became super clear to me that I just needed to do this. So that was a great process because I learned something. So then I realized that I needed more dedicated time to just do this. So that’s when I, in early 2023, took a few months off of work. I just took a sabbatical, and that was totally necessary for me to finish the book.

(00:46:33):

I sat in the middle of the winter in my little home in Bend, Oregon, and I sat at my desk every single day for 13 hours a day and spent a lot of that time staring at the wall and a lot of that time writing. It was literally there were three feet of snow outside most days, and I just had the most yin, antisocial internal period of my life just writing, basically. It’s a very strange process.

(00:47:03):

I kind of felt like the crazy writer for those three months, some days never getting out of my pajamas and some days writing one sentence, some days writing 30 pages. So that was fascinating. But what I did during that time, prior to that, it had just been trying to cobble it into weekends and evenings, and it was just tough. But that was nice to have that dedicated time, kind of a writing retreat, basically.

(00:47:31):

I used Focusmate a lot, which is an incredible program where basically you’re just paired with someone on Zoom. You are with them for an hour, and you spend three minutes telling them what you want to accomplish in that hour. And then you check in at the end and basically talk about … So it’s literally just essentially having some external accountability to your one-hour work chunk.

(00:47:56):

So I’d schedule sometimes eight of those a day just back to back. I love Focusmate. A lot of the book got written basically with a person on the screen in Dubai or China who was also on. So that was pretty cool. I love Focusmate. The other thing I did that was very motivating was every morning as I was brushing my teeth and taking a morning walk, I would listen to a book or a podcast about writing to get me motivated.

(00:48:25):

I listened to The War of Art, which is a great book about writing. I listened to Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. I listened to The Writer’s Way. I listened to Creative Act by Rick Rubin. I tried to find a lot of other podcasts. So I’d start every day with just a writer in my ear talking to me about the writing process, and something about that just helped me stay motivated, similar to when I need to get back on certain health kicks, I’ll listen to a book about that.

(00:48:54):

If I’m slacking on lifting weights, I’ll go back and listen to Gabrielle Lyon’s book, Forever Strong. Something about that really gets me motivated. So starting every day with just a little chunk of inspiration and then lots of deadlines, just telling Calley and my publisher, “I will have chapter seven to you by this date,” and telling everyone because disappointing people is one of my strongest motivators. So forcing myself to set those deadlines. So those were some of the things I did.

(00:49:27):

And then, yeah, just keeping a really quiet life at that time. It was a lot of walks, a lot of just really sitting and thinking. I think another thing that I just honored in myself and really tried to step out of any shame around it was that it’s not a linear process. It’s not like you just sit down and write every day all the time. There’s a lot of churning and birthing that has to happen, and that’s okay. Stuff is still happening in that maybe downtime that looks like you’re not making progress.

(00:50:01):

I was so fortunate in my family growing up, like I mentioned, my dad has written several books, and my parents both have always supported this notion of there is so much magic happening in the background processing. So you don’t want to over schedule your life. We did so much stuff as a family. We traveled. We were always doing cool stuff, but they were not afraid of unstructured downtime because they’re both really deep thinkers.

(00:50:26):

So there’d be times in medical school or other times when I’d call my dad or mom and be like, “I just feel like such a lazy piece of shit. I’ve been staring at the wall for the past two hours, and I feel totally unmotivated to do anything.” And they’re like, “Yeah, you’re thinking. You’ve had all these experiences the past two weeks, and you’re consolidating and thinking about them.”

(00:50:45):

I remember my dad gave me this book called The Agony and the Ecstasy, which is a biographical novel of Michelangelo. He gave it to me in college, and I remember loving this book so much. But a lot of it is about Michelangelo we think of as one of those prolific artists in history. There were decade periods where he basically had nothing produced or didn’t work, but he was thinking and he was synthesizing. He was living life.

(00:51:11):

So I think in the writing process, there can be a lot of this internal dialogue about I didn’t get enough done today, or this is not working. But it’s just totally stepping out of giving yourself a hard time and respecting the fact that there is so much churning inside of you, and if you’ve written 20 pages the day before, you might just be processing what was written and then trust that there’s going to be an explosion the next day or the day after.

(00:51:40):

So just really honoring the cycle as opposed to beating yourself up about it, because that doesn’t really help as well. So yeah.

Mike Haney (00:51:51):

Just this weekend I listened to Cal Newport’s new book, which is called Slow Productivity, and it opens with the scene of John McPhee laying on his picnic table staring at the sky for weeks as he’s trying to figure out what to do with one of his many 40,000-word pieces that he was going to do. So that Michelangelo story very much rings true in that way.

(00:52:12):

Did that come naturally to you, that being able to balance between bursts of, actually, I’m sitting down, I’m typing, I’m doing the work of putting words on paper with, I just need to think for a while. Did that organically arise, particularly in that three-month period of really focusing on the writing, or did you come to that after burning out from writing? Or did somebody give you that advice?

Casey Means (00:52:36):

I think a lot of it came from the family experience, from what my family valued and throughout my entire life, hearing this voice from the people I respected most, my parents, that to be maximally creatively generative and to create new independent thought, it requires periods of yin. It requires not being constantly busy. So that was very much built into me.

(00:53:10):

I remember I would see my dad when he was writing. He did a lot of thinking. He’s a big thinker and then would write an entire book in two months just at the dining room table over the weekends. There are probably other writers who are different, who they just have the four hours every morning that they sit and they type the entire time. But I’m a bit more of, I think, that I do need discipline and I need the deadlines, but I also need just a lot of time to synthesize and think. That’s always been a part of my life.

(00:53:51):

I think it’s why sometimes if I’m overly social or I’m overly busy, I will very much get deeply depleted. I need the quiet time. I think something interesting about our culture right now is I just think there’s this cult of busyness or just our capitalistic, crazy digital culture. It’s just all about how booked can you be. Kids are so booked now. Everyone’s moving all the time, and I just wonder what that’s doing to our ability to just sit and synthesize complex thoughts.

(00:54:22):

And then you couple that with the cancel culture, which is like, “Okay, if you speak your complex thoughts, we’re going to cancel you.” So on both ends, there’s a stifling of, I think, creativity and sharing. It’s like keep you as busy as possible and feel like you have less value if you’re not constantly doing stuff and that just stopping and thinking is like you’re lazy. And then when you do share your thoughts, if we don’t like it, we’re going to cancel it.

(00:54:51):

So you get this really, unfortunately, a stifling of, I think, what is the ultimate gift of being human, being this particular species in this incarnation, which is that we have these crazy, complex supercomputer brains.

(00:55:08):

To get back to your question, I think some of what really motivated me was just really believing that and being like me taking the time to think and synthesize is almost an act of revolution in our culture and something I want to fight back against in our culture of over-busyness and of essentially different ways to get people to maybe not be fully expressing their unique flavor of light in the world, which I think is one of the biggest epidemics we have in our culture today is that, is a stifling of our unique voice.

(00:55:50):

So there was a part of me that also, everything I do, I think I get really motivated by a little bit of a resistance contrarian edge. I think being like, “Yeah, I’m going to do me, and I’m going to sit in my house in Bend for three months and putter and walk and think and write and let spirit flow through me in that way,” felt really good because it’s different than what society wants from us right now, which is …

(00:56:12):

I got off social media completely. Totally got rid of all my social media accounts during that time, and it almost feels good to be like, “Yeah, I’m going to live this different life that isn’t necessarily normal.” But I think this is good to live in that way of pure creativity for a little while. So that motivated me, too.

Mike Haney (00:56:35):

It’s interesting listening to Slow Productivity at the same time I was reading your book this past week. As Cal Newport’s talking about what you were just talking about, this appearance of busyness and we have to be constantly running even if we’re not getting things done, I kept thinking about what is this doing to our mitochondria, that sort of constant … We know what a role stress plays, and I just had that thought of as a culture we are … Stress is so built into the culture now.

(00:57:04):

If you’re not stressed, you’re not doing it right. No wonder our mitochondria are suffering if that’s the default. Was there a health journey for you through this? How did you maintain your health and your practices in that period, particularly of really deep focus on the book?

Casey Means (00:57:26):

Yeah. I mean I think during that time I actually needed to get extra support, I think, to stay accountable to the health stuff because this was such a big thing and there was such a big deadline that it was like everything else could come second. As I think you know about me, I’m a night owl, and that is also an issue for me. A lot of my creativity comes at night, but it was not healthy for me to be staying up until 4:00 in the morning and then sleeping until noon. It was okay.

(00:57:53):

Actually, my therapist at the time was like, “Who cares? If that’s when you’re writing the book, just do it.” But I actually knew it wasn’t feeling healthy for me to be staying up so late. So I hired an amazing coach, this amazing woman, Monica Nelson, who was with me during this entire period, who helped me on sleep coaching, nutrition coaching, and was my personal trainer over Zoom. So for the entire time, we had three Zoom workouts scheduled per week, which I did in my garage.

(00:58:24):

We did resistance training and high intensity interval training. I took walks constantly because that’s really when I think. She had me keep all my food logs and made sure I was getting enough protein and all that stuff. We reviewed the food logs every weekend of the whole process, and she made me send her my sleep data every single night. We had a goal of me basically going to bed before midnight and getting seven, eight hours of sleep a night.

(00:58:47):

And then I did work with my therapist during that time, so I just called in the forces because I have no pride when it comes to, oh, I have to do this all by myself. I definitely believe in having support. So I had my remote team of amazing women who were basically helping me stay as healthy as possible during the process.

Mike Haney (00:59:09):

I think that’s such a great message because I think it’d be so easy for somebody to read this book and think Casey’s got it all dialed in. Casey’s always eating perfectly. Casey’s always sleeping perfectly. When we used to do the newsletter, you were always honest about, “Nope, I go on vacation, and I struggle to maintain this.”

(00:59:24):

But just that notion of getting help and whether it’s a coach or whether it’s a friend or your sibling or somebody else that just helps, yeah, sometimes you’re just going to need that support to maintain it, particularly in a burst of intense work-

Casey Means (00:59:40):

Totally.

Mike Haney (00:59:40):

… like in this kind of period where you do have those deadlines and you need to get things done.

(00:59:44):

I think of the writing of a book in three parts. There’s the thinking. There’s the writing. But then there’s also the reporting. So I want to hear a little bit about that aspect of it. On one hand, this is stuff you’ve been living and breathing for so long, but there is so much in here of the science, of the explanation of the mechanisms, of the latest research.

(01:00:04):

Just what did the reporting process look like here? What did you have to do to make sure you were as up-to-date as you needed to be on the science?

Casey Means (01:00:14):

I spent hundreds, if not thousands, of hours just on PubMed while writing this book. I think, for me, absorbing so much over the past 10, 15 years because this book is really a culmination of everything in my life that I’ve been learning. There are things in this book that I learned in college, that I learned in medical school, residency, my own reading, philosophy that I’ve read, my experience losing 70 pounds as a 14-year-old. It’s all in this book.

(01:00:53):

I think that the framework that I present in the book was fully fleshed out in my mind based on just the thousands upon thousands of little data points from papers I’ve read and this and that. And then a lot of it is then how do you take that framework and both validate and make sure that it’s right and then flesh it out with enough additional data to really make it rock solid?

(01:01:19):

So the rough architecture was basically that was just the product of the bubbling up of the thousands of experience of my life and all those nights thinking and journaling and all that stuff. And then the book process was about deeply verifying that it was correct and fleshing it out so that it would be really rock solid. So that was going to the literature and just reading paper after paper after paper and then picking the ones for the book that actually really helped bring it all together. But it was fun.

(01:01:57):

I’ve always been a journaler and take copious written notes. What’s fun is that the book has little pieces from, I probably have 20, 30 journals. It has little pieces from every single one. I remember going to a conference 10 years ago and learning about thylakoids, which are a molecule in chloroplasts in plants that have an interaction with the distal small intestine in the gut and actually promotes satiety.

(01:02:27):

So eating green vegetables along with other foods will actually promote satiety just through the mechanism of this thylakoid that’s part of the chloroplast. That just fascinated me at that time and was written in some journal, and it’s in the book. But I, of course, then had to go back and read 20 papers about thylakoids and really understand what it meant and just solidify it. So that was kind of the process.

(01:02:53):

And then there were new things I learned for the book, for sure, surprising things, like another example is I remember I read this great book several years ago called Whole Person Integrative Eating, and they talked about that, gratitude, if people with type two diabetes express gratitude before a meal, they have a lower glucose response to the meal. So that had been stuck in my brain somewhere in some little filing cabinet.

(01:03:22):

When I went to go really dive into that to include it in the book and really truly understand the research behind it, I found lots more about how the how of eating is actually almost equally important as the what of eating, so eating with other people, eating slowly. There’s certain studies that show that people who eat the fastest, so the fastest quartile of eaters have a four times higher risk of metabolic syndrome than people who eat slower.

(01:03:52):

So fleshing out there might have been a nugget or a pearl in my mind, and then as I went down that rabbit hole learned new things that I wanted to include in the book. So that’s how it took shape for me. And then just ultimately having my computer was just PDFs of just hundreds or thousands of papers basically that I was constantly shuffling around on my computer. It was a pretty amazing process to have this opportunity to continue my education in a way and flesh out concepts that had interested me throughout my life.

Mike Haney (01:04:28):

Was there anything that you either changed your mind about or maybe changed your emphasis on?

Casey Means (01:04:34):

Oh, man, that’s a really great question. I mean I think something that evolved from the start of Levels to the book is that I was vegan when we started Levels, and now I’m very much not vegan. I’m very much focused on sustainable agriculture and food sourcing. The first seeds of writing the book were when I actually had a different eating philosophy.

(01:05:01):

Basically, through research and through understanding and growing, really realizing that it’s, I think, a lot more about food quality and the nutrients and the molecular information of our food than a particular dietary strategy, like just eliminating meat. So that was one that I feel like just got continued to be fleshed out as I wrote the book, of really understanding and trusting my approach.

(01:05:27):

I think something that evolved for me a lot throughout writing the book because I think writing the book actually made me a much more spiritual person. A lot of the books I was talking about and reading about, like Big Magic and The War of Art and even The Writer’s Way and The Creative Act actually, they all talk about how writing is … If you’re spiritually inclined to think that way, part of the work is actually just slowing down and letting yourself hear the signals that need to come through you.

(01:05:55):

There’s a great story in Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert where basically her and Ann Patchett, two of the most prolific writers in the modern world, they both had the exact same idea for the same novel that was very specific about a botanist going to South America within a few weeks of each other. One of them had the capacity to take that idea and write a book, and one didn’t at that time.

(01:06:20):

So something happening in the other realm that’s sort of looking for people on Earth to basically take that idea and push it forward. As I read a lot of these writers talking about that and let myself be open to that, I think there was a bit more of hearing signals of you need to go in this direction or you need to keep writing about this. And then as I kept flexing that muscle of almost asking for help like, “Help me. I want to hear these signals. I believe in these signals,” and then feeling more of that come through.

(01:06:58):

That actually, I think, then it did make it into the book where there is a bit of a spiritual element to the book as well, which I’m really excited that that came through. To kind of wrap that into metabolism, I think, and you were talking about how does all this stress affect our mitochondria? One thing that really came to me in writing this book is that insulin resistance, which we’re talking about on a very mechanistic level inside the book, it’s like insulin resistance is fundamentally a block of the flow of energy through our body.

(01:07:31):

Our cells are so overwhelmed and confused by our modern world, that potential energy from the environment is blocked to move through us into human energy. It’s a block of flow. So just really sitting with those concepts and the bigger picture of what that means. If food is actually the sun’s energy stored in the carbon bonds of plants, which is what it is, which is pretty freaking cool.

(01:07:59):

One way to look at the body, it’s a transformer of energy from potential energy outside of us from the sun to human energy, which lets us think, feel, move, create ideas. Insulin resistance is literally the block to that flow. I think the book was, I think, even more science-y when I started the project and almost became even more spiritual as I got so deep into the project because we’re all here at Levels to save the mitochondria, and the book, the idea is to save the mitochondria.

(01:08:32):

But on a bigger level, we’re unlocking the capacity of the body to do what it’s really meant to do, which is have an unbridled flow of cosmic energy, solar energy through us to power, hopefully, our highest purpose. That inspires me so deeply, even more almost than talking about food. So that was an evolution for me too, I think, of just more just even getting even more in a state of awe of what’s really happening inside our bodies and hopefully bringing that to the pages.

Mike Haney (01:09:09):

You mentioned this as a culmination of a lot of the life experience, the learning you’ve done over the past 15 years. How does it feel now we’re looking at the actual physical product of it to have all of that encapsulated in one book and just all together and out there in the world? Does it feel like a milestone, a chapter in your life? Does it feel scary to have it all put into a permanent record, in a way?

Casey Means (01:09:37):

Oh, my gosh. I think it’s one of the best feelings I’ve ever had. This is why I really would encourage people to take the leap, if they feel like a book is bursting out of them, to do it because it’s a process of crystallizing what’s inside of you into something that can live outside of you hopefully forever and have a positive impact, and it’s a way to scale. We always talked about this at Level. It’s like time does not scale. Content does scale. So it’s hopefully a way to scale your light.

(01:10:10):

I really believe that each of us is this unique biochemical form and is a unique biochemical form through which energy can flow through. There’s all these different ways to create in the world, but a book is one that it’s like it’s just eminently scalable, transferable, movable. So that just feels really, really good. I think, again, there’s so many ways to create art and to take what’s inside of you and put it outside of you to share.

(01:10:38):

But that particular thing of doing that, taking what’s inside of you and putting it outside of you to hopefully spread light in the world is an incredible feeling that I want everyone to be able to feel and, in a way, to slow down enough and set boundaries in their life enough that they can do that process because it feels really freaking good. I think it’s why all of us probably write. It feels amazing on that level.

(01:11:09):

I think that’s what is in the book, if internalized, can change lives, can help people be incredibly empowered, can help them reevaluate their relationship with all systems that we hand over our trust to without maybe thinking as deeply as we should about that relationship, to have awe and reverence for their own bodies. I just really believe that everyone can benefit from supporting their metabolic health, and so it just feels really good to have that in the world.

(01:11:41):

My greatest hope is that it helps improve people’s lives, like we’re all trying to do at Levels. So yeah. I would say it’s the representation of an unbridled flow of energy through me. That, I think, is ultimately one of the best feelings you can have as a human. You’re a writer. So I want to actually turn this question back to you. Does that resonate with you as a writer when you see an article? I don’t know. Curious your perspective on that process.

Mike Haney (01:12:10):

It’s interesting. Having not written a book and as a journalist probably less so because I think the focus is less personal and more … Anything I do has to feel authentic to me. I couldn’t write something that I disagreed with. But, for me, it’s more about am I making this information as clear as possible? Am I telling a story that’s going to pull somebody in?

(01:12:46):

You mentioned earlier that idea of the voice having to feel very much like you. It sounds like your experience of actually finishing this and it’s starting to be out in the world, that that feeling that this is an authentic representation of you has maintained and that that feels like it would be so key.

(01:13:09):

If you get to this point and feel like you had, for whatever reason, been railroaded into doing something that you didn’t fully believe in or didn’t feel that authentic would be very difficult because, especially at this stage when you’re out having to promote it and talk about it. I mean I think about you watch actors go out and promote a movie, and you’re like, “Oh, they didn’t like that movie very much at all.” You could just sort of tell. They’re like, “Yeah, it was great.”

(01:13:34):

I know we’re talking before this is fully released, but I’m sure you’ve had friends, colleagues, people you trust read drafts of it. From the little bit it’s been out in the world so far, what’s been your experience of just sharing the book itself with other people? Any feedback that you’ve gotten? Anything you’ve heard so far?

Casey Means (01:13:54):

Oh, my goodness. Wow. Well, I would say probably only about 25 people in the world of Reddit, all the reviewers and you and my publisher. The feedback has been wonderful. I mean the final product of the book is the result of literally dozens if not 100 drafts. So it has been critiqued and evaluated and changed and had feedback at every single step.

(01:14:24):

So I think once we get to the final product, it’s like, yeah, I think that you’re in a place where probably more of the feedback is positive because the people who have read it have been involved in the critiquing process throughout. So it’s like now it’s finally that final product. I think it’s going to be interesting when the book goes out into the world because I’m sure then there’s going to be a lot more, a huge diversity of feedback.

(01:14:52):

I expect that, and I welcome it because it’s not a soft perspective. It’s a very strong point of view. It’s a very intense critique of the largest industry in the entire United States, the healthcare system. It also very direct and no punches pulled about what needs to happen for us to be healthy. This is not a book about all good things in moderation.

(01:15:17):

I’m sure there’s going to be pushback from a lot of different sources, and I welcome it because this is about starting a conversation to push our country forward, our world forward in a positive way. I don’t think you’re ever going to be able to do that without some elbows being thrown.

(01:15:38):

So that’s going to be a fascinating experience that I think I’m just every day continuing to just build my mental and physical fortitude to just really be ready for that because it’s crazy that it’s been a multi-year process, and it’s still not even in the world yet. But I definitely welcome all of that.

(01:16:04):

So many people have said this before me, but it’s like if you’re in the arena putting yourself out there, there’s going to be criticism and whatnot. So hopefully, the goal would be that that sparks conversations with people. But we shall see. If it’s not starting conversations, then I’ll be disappointed.

Mike Haney (01:16:23):

I think it definitely will because, as you say, it certainly takes a point of view. I think, to me, it really crystallized a lot of what we’ve talked about over the years of those moments when your real passion around a subject or like, “No, this is just what needs to happen,” comes out, and I feel like that comes out throughout the book, again, all ensconced in an optimistic, positive, science-backed voice.

(01:16:50):

But it definitely does not pull punches. So I’m sure you will have conversations around it, which like you said, will be great. It’ll be interesting to see if there is feedback, how you feel about it six months or a year from now. If there are feedback or there are conversations you have that I don’t imagine that changing your mind about the thesis of it at all, but just you will continue to grow as a thinker in this space.

(01:17:15):

I’m sure your points of view on a lot of this stuff will continue to evolve. Which actually leads to my last question. I’m so glad to hear this was such a positive experience for you. Is there another book in you?

Casey Means (01:17:28):

I mean I would love to write another book. I would love to do this process several times. The focus right now is just getting the book launched, but I have the intention out there in my meditations of, again, asking the universe, the spirit world, I would like to write another book. I’m so grateful for this process, and I’m ready and open to seeing the signals that are put in front of me for what’s next.

(01:18:01):

So just that’s really my prayer every morning is there’s a lot of things on my mind, for sure, of what I’d like to explore next, but there’s not that exact thesis that I think that I had for this. So right now, it’s mostly an intention of I am willing to see, recognize, and not ignore signals that come towards me, sort of like that Ann Patchett/Elizabeth Gilbert thing where this idea floated to both of them and who was ready to take it.

(01:18:32):

So just putting that intention out of I am ready to hear and will respect the signals that are put in front of me, which I think is … There’s this wonderful Hindu thinker, Yogananda, and one of the sayings from that teaching meditation practice is you have to make the first move with God. So that’s my first move of I’m ready to hear those signals, and I would love to write another book. So that’s where I’m at right now in terms of the second book, very early.

Mike Haney (01:19:08):

That’s amazing. Is there anything we didn’t touch on that you want to share about this process or the experience of writing it or even if there are any other sort of practical tips, tools, anything like that that we didn’t hit on?

Casey Means (01:19:20):

I think one thing that I think was not a surprise, but that feels so real now that I just couldn’t have known three years ago, is how big of a team it takes to bring a book to the world. There are so many people. Writing the acknowledgment section, I think, is such a beautiful process because it just makes you realize it’s dozens and dozens of people that allow this to come into the world.

(01:19:44):

I almost can tear up just with gratitude, thinking about all the people who have had to be involved to just have this book be on the table from, of course, there’s 10 people in my publishing team. There’s the people at the agency. There’s, of course, my brother, my dad and friends, the Whole Levels team who is so supportive and you and copywriters, working with recipe developers, working with designers, working with Sonya, my incredible partner in bringing this book to the world on the marketing front the past eight months, my executive assistant.

(01:20:25):

It is literally a village of people with any one of them not there, it really wouldn’t exist. So a lot of writing a book, I would say, is just team management and project management. There is the creative part of writing the book and the practical part of writing a book, but it is a huge organizational endeavor where there are 1,000 moving parts. That’s why I’m working with Sonya, who’s really managing the book launch. She’s the most efficient person I’ve ever met and is working full-time with me for almost a year.

(01:21:07):

I just can’t even imagine doing all that stuff on my own. And then we also have Calley. I think that’s just something to realize, that it is not just writing a book. It is also bringing it to the world, which is a very dynamic process. As the author, you are responsible for marketing the book, making sure that you’re, A, representing it as aggressively as you possibly can and finding ways to get this into the zeitgeist, podcasts, media, press, network, et cetera.

(01:21:41):

So just managing that communication strategy is a multiple full-time job if you’re doing a big book with a publisher. It’s really fun and I really enjoy that, but it’s a whole other business. So you have to start a business literally, like an LLC. It’s a whole different thing. But that’s just something to be aware of, and that whole process is really fun.

(01:22:08):

But it takes a village, and there’s a lot of being an author that’s also being a project manager, a team manager, running a slightly separate business for the book. It’s been learning on the go, and I think talking to other people who have done this before you as much as possible is one of the best ways to learn how to do it. So yeah/

Mike Haney (01:22:33):

It feels like that is also probably a useful culmination of everything you’ve done over the last 10 to 15 years, besides the actual contents of the book, is just the working practices you picked up at Levels and before, the people that you met, Sonya, obviously working with her at Levels, and just assembling this team around you of folks that you can operationalize all the podcasts and practice you’ve got at doing it, that is the perfect moment in your life to be in this position to now be out selling the book as opposed to, say, 10 years ago.

Casey Means (01:23:06):

Totally. I don’t think I could have done it 10 years ago. Absolutely. Just thinking about how the process of writing this book and bringing it to the world and then Levels cultural stuff that we’ve developed over the years, they’re completely intertangled. This has been a very asynchronous, remote process of everyone we’ve worked with has had to deal with our Loom videos and Notion documents.

(01:23:30):

So it’s so fun to see the intermingling of our culture at Levels with this also culture I’ve built in this book publishing part of my world and just seeing the beautiful fingerprints of them all over each other. I’ve worked with, of course, Jen Chesak on copyediting the book, who’s someone I met through Levels, and our advisors have been an amazing resource.

(01:23:54):

So it’s just been a beautiful, interconnected process and feels like it only could have happened at this moment in life. Hopefully, none of this conversation intimidated anyone from writing a book. It is such a beautiful learning experience and process. I think if that sense of it needing to come out of you is real, really, don’t shy away from it. It’s a beautiful process.