#42 – Self-love for weight loss: Making diet & exercise an easy, natural habit | Drew Manning, Fit2Fat2Fit

Weight loss and physical transformation are significantly more mental and emotional than we think; it goes beyond diet and exercise. Fitness trainer and creator of Fit2Fat2Fit Drew Manning discovered how self-love is the piece to focus on for natural habit changes that can bring physical change. In this episode, Drew spoke with Ben Grynol about his journey from fit to fat and fit again, the challenges of an unhealthy lifestyle, and how he’s learned empathy for people who are trying to make healthy lifestyle changes.

06:15 – Drew’s journey

Drew decided that if he wanted to help his clients become healthier, he needed to know how it felt to try and lose weight. So he went on a six-month journey to gain weight, which he then lost.

Fit2Fat2Fit, in a nutshell, was my journey of individually gain weight. So six months. I couldn’t exercise. So no exercise. And then instead of Morgan Spurlock, who did Supersize Me, which he focused on McDonald’s or fast foods for 30 days, what I wanted to do for six months was focus on every day American foods that we grew up with here in America in the seventies and eighties. So super highly processed, delicious foods. I’m not going to lie, they do taste delicious. Very convenient, very affordable, super cheap. And those are the types of foods that I focus on to gain the weight for those six months. And to make a long story short, I put 75 pounds of pure fat in those six months. It was one of the furthest, most humbling things I’ve ever done. And luckily, the story kind of caught on with the media and the story went viral. And that’s why most people know me as the Fit2Fat2Fit guy. So I gained 75 pounds in six months and then was fortunate enough to lose it the next six months. So that’s why it’s called Fit2Fat2Fit.

08:10 – The mental weight of an unhealthy lifestyle

Drew wasn’t expecting his journey to be as mentally and emotionally challenging as it was. The weight he gained even caused a bit of an identity crisis for him.

The mental and emotional component was the biggest surprise. I was not expecting it to be as psychologically challenging as it was. And that’s where I learned the most valuable lesson. So my identity, my entire life before this, was my body image. So Drew, the fit body guy. ‘Cause that’s all I ever knew. That was my identity. And that was my self image. And so the second I gained 10 pounds or 20 pounds, I had this identity crisis. I kind of freaked out. Like, “Wait a second. This isn’t me.” And so I wanted to go up to strangers and explain to them why I was overweight and wanted to show them before pictures of what I normally looked like and wanted to over explain about what I was doing so that they didn’t judge me. Because I kind of freaked out in those moments being overweight for the first time. I didn’t know how to handle it. My identity was based on my body image looking a certain way. And so that was a very, very humbling experience for me.

09:10 – Don’t let body issues define your self-image

For a lot of people, their identity is based solely on their bodies. If you see yourself as a fit or fat person, it’s difficult to shake that identity even when your body changes.

I think for a lot of people who grew up their entire life out of shape, their body image becomes their self image. And what I mean by that is, their identity is solely based on their body. Like, “Oh, I’m the fit person.” Or, “I’m the fat person.” And then they tell themselves that story for years and decades, and they attach themselves to that story. And so when they try and lose weight, maybe they do lose some weight, but they still see themselves as that overweight person because that’s what they’ve told themselves and they believed that story for years. And so for me, the opposite of that became true for me. And so I kind of freaked out. So the psychological aspect of this was really, really difficult.

10:52 – Transformation isn’t just physical

Transformation is much more mental and emotional than most people believe. It’s easy to get stuck in an unhealthy lifestyle if you don’t have the right mindset.

This journey of transformation, even though I was doing this on purpose, helped me realize that transformation is way more mental and emotional than we think it is. And that’s where the empathy started to come into play. And I started to empathize for people who might get stuck in the situation. And I can better understand why they get stuck here and still. The mental, emotional turmoil that they go through as they’re trying to better their lives and transform their bodies. And so for me, it was an eye opening experience. Like I said, it was truly humbling. And I learned a lot of empathy from this experiment. And I realized just how wrong I was. I admitted I was wrong to the world about my approach how easy I thought it was. Like, “Hey, if you just do it and there’s no excuses. And you just will power your way through it.” That was my mentality before I did it. Afterwards, I have a lot more empathy and compassion for people who struggle with body image issues and weight issues because this experiment really humbled me in that sense.

23:46 – Un-training your brain

When Drew started to lose weight, he had to unlearn all of his unhealthy eating practices and deal with withdrawal from junk food.

I remember the first two weeks were the most grueling hellish experience that I’ve never experienced before because I’ve never had to just go cold turkey, eating all this junk food, which felt really good for six months, right? Training my body, my mind to react to a certain way. And then now, all of a sudden, not being able to have that. My body went through withdrawal symptoms as if it was getting off of a drug. And I remember my body fought back against me, which was so interesting. It was a very big surprise. ‘Cause I was thinking, “Oh, day one. I have my green smoothie in the morning, have my salad and my protein and veggies throughout the day. And before you know it, I’ll have my six pack back in no time.” Right? And I kind of went into it thinking, “Oh, yeah. I’m going to feel great.” But I felt miserable. I had headaches. I was grumpy. I was moody. The food did not taste nearly as good as I remember it tasting. I felt hungry all the time. And it felt like my body was like, “Hey, where is this high that we’ve had for the past six months? We don’t like this feeling.” And it took a good two weeks of going through that hell for it to improve.

25:45 – The emotional connection to food

We have trained our brains to have an emotional response to food, which makes it that much harder to quit an unhealthy lifestyle.

This is why it’s so difficult. Because the emotional connection to food, I totally underestimated that. I didn’t realize that it was something to even talk about. I was like, “No. You just will power your way through it. And you just do it.” Until I had that experience myself where I’m like, “Oh, I see now. I understand why it’s so hard. It’s not just a matter of willpower.” It’s the emotional connection to food that we build up where, over time, we’ve trained our brain and we programmed our brain to respond to stress by getting a little bit of an escape, if you will, or a numbing mechanism by having this little dopamine release every time we have a delicious food. And then over the years, we train our brain. Any time we have emotional pain or emotional challenge in life, we don’t like to stay in that pain. As humans, we look for releases. We want to run away from the pain. And so, guess what the most accessible drug is to feel better instantly? It’s not cocaine or heroin. It’s the ultra processed junk food that we have available 24/7 here in the United States.

31:03 – It’s hard to be healthy

It’s so easy and convenient to eat unhealthy foods that living a healthy life is actually an uphill battle.

It’s unfortunate that we live in a society where, to be healthy is the hard route. That’s the uphill battle. To get organic, grass fed food. And you kind of have to go out of your way. You have to spend more money. You have to spend more mental energy, putting the effort to researching, studying. Okay, what has sugar. What doesn’t have sugar. Meal prepping all this food. Spending the money on all that. And knowing how to do that. And that’s why people are turned off by trying to live a healthy lifestyle because they’re like, “Man, this is so much effort, day in and day out. And I have to worry about kids and finances and spouse and other relationships and other adult things.”

41:57 – Diets aren’t always healthy

To show people how even healthy diets can be used in unhealthy ways, Drew tried “dirty” versions of keto, vegan, vegetarian, and even paleo while he was trying to gain weight.

I threw in these little mini experiments with the most popular diets out there. Keto, paleo, vegan, and vegetarian, in my opinion. And kind of put those four diets to the test as I gained the weight to show people like, “Hey, just because you’re keto, just because you’re vegan, there is an unhealthy way to do it. Which is what a lot of people gravitate towards.” So I did a little mini experiment with these diets where I show my blood sugar levels eating the dirty version, if you will, of keto or paleo or vegan. Because, as you know, once a diet becomes popular, becomes mainstream, marketing companies jump all over that. And so now you have keto cookies and keto ice cream and keto breads. And you have vegan cookies and vegan junk food and paleo pancakes and paleo treats and all the stuff, right? We have all the comfort foods that fit into those categories. So people do these diets and they’re like, “Oh, man. I really miss pizza. I’m going to get this keto pizza.” Or, “I really miss,” Something. Cookies or bread. I’m going to get this vegan version of it. And before you know it, they’re eating most of their calories from these processed foods that fit into these categories thinking, “Hey. Well, I’m healthier because I’m doing this diet or that diet.” And so I show my blood sugar responses for those dirty versions of those diets. And that was very interesting to show what was happening, not just to my blood sugar levels, but also, my sleep.

45:44 – Your physical health affects your relationships

The sugar crashes from an unhealthy diet lessen your ability to handle stress, which puts a strain on your relationships.

You’re constantly in survival mode and your ability to handle stress is diminished. So you only have so much patience with your kids or with your spouse or significant other dealing with stress. Right? And now that you’re super physically unhealthy, your ability to handle that stress is severely diminished. So then you’re just reactive. You’re not the nicest version of you. You’re not the most thoughtful version of you that you would want to be. And this is how living an unhealthy physical lifestyle day in and day out, year after year, decade after decade, affects who you are, the core of who you are, affects your personality. And this is why your physical health is tied to your mental, emotional, and spiritual health. A lot of people don’t think that’s true, but the way you eat, the way you sleep, the lack of exercise that you get, affects your ability to show up in these other relationships that are super important to you. You love your kids, you love your spouse, you love your significant other, but you’re not the best version of yourself for them by abusing your body this way day in and day out, year after year, decade after decade.

53:38 – Be comfortable with being uncomfortable

It’s easier to push through and make healthy changes to your lifestyle if you learn how to be comfortable in uncomfortable situations.

The ultimate thing is training your brain to become comfortable in uncomfortable situations. And by training your brain to become comfortable in uncomfortable situations, that tends to carry over into the whole diet and exercise and consistency and discipline part. Because let’s be honest, transformation is uncomfortable. And we are a society of comfort now. And we have all the comforts at our fingertips. So any time of the day, it’s hard. You kind of have to go out of your way to be uncomfortable nowadays. There’s a pill or a potion for a headache or a stomach ache or you’re too hot or you’re too cold. Or whatever. We have all the comforts we could possibly have.

Drew Manning (00:00:06):

It’s the ultra-processed junk food that we have available 24/7 here in the United States, for example, where any time of day, we can go get a dopamine release, just like cocaine or heroine would do, but instead, you can do it multiple times per day and it’s legal, it tastes really good, and it’s affordable. Right? And everyone, for the most part, eats this type of food. And so we train our brain for years and decades. And then all of a sudden we’re like, “Okay, I’m going to diet. I’m going to lose weight. I’m not going to touch sugar.” It’s like, “Well, good luck. It’s like telling a drug addict, “All right, no more drugs. You just got to will power your way through this.” And this is why it’s so difficult for people to get off of these addictive substances. Same thing for food. And this is where my eyes were opened and I was awake to, oh, this is why people struggle with transformation. It’s because we expect them to follow this diet as if it’s no problem. You just will power your way through it. And it should be easy for you.

Ben Grynol (00:01:04):

I’m Ben Grynol, part of the early startup team here at LEVELS. We’re building tech that helps people to understand their metabolic health. And this is your front row seat to everything we do. This is a whole new level.

(00:01:30):

When Drew Manning was 30 years old, he decided to undertake a journey with nutrition and fitness. And he wasn’t really sure how it was going to end up. Well, if you know of Drew Manning, this is his story, the fit to fat to fit journey. As a trainer, he wanted to develop deeper empathy and a better lens on some of the things that his clients would go through when they are thinking about getting into shape. So in 2009, Drew decided to, for six months straight eat, highly processed foods, eat things that were not part of his regular routine. And he stopped working out. The goal was to put on weight. Now, this sounds counterintuitive. He put on 75 pounds, but he put it on with the intent of seeing how he would physically feel, seeing how he would mentally feel. And after six months, would try to lose all that weight.

(00:02:19):

Well, the journey was a lot harder than he thought it would be. Physically, he started to notice big changes in his demeanor. Mentally, he started to notice how emotionally draining it was to go through this journey. And so after six months, he started trying to lose this weight and it was a lot harder than he thought it would be. This, again, helped to reinforce this empathy for why it can be so challenging to go through these health and wellness journeys. Well, fast forward 10 years later, 2020, Drew did it again. He put on weight and he lost it. This time, he used a CGM, specifically LEVELS, to get more data about the way food affected his health and some of the insights he would see when going through this fitness journey. And so, Drew, an author, a podcaster, a media personality in every respect. He’s even got a TV show Fit2Fat2Fit.

(00:03:09):

Drew sat down and shared his journey with putting on weight and taking it off. We had a great conversation, a lot of it about mindset, a lot about creating the healthy foundation for all these other behaviors to enable positive nutrition, positive routines with fitness. It gets so much deeper than just eating the right foods or having consistent fitness. So everything from sleep to mindfulness, meditating, gratitude, all of these aspects have to do with having a strong foundation, a strong mechanism for being able to maintain routine and maintain balance. Anyway, no need to wait. Here’s the conversation with Drew.

(00:03:53):

Let’s kick it off with going all the way back to how you started this whole journey. Go into your background, how you got into fitness and nutrition and what was sort of the catalyst for this journey that you were headed on. So we’ll leave it on a bit of a cliffhanger for you to navigate this one with your hand on the rudder.

Drew Manning (00:04:11):

Yeah. So a little bit about my backstory. So I grew up in a family of 11 brothers and sisters. And there was eight boys, three girls. I was number seven. We all played sports. So I grew up playing football and wrestling from a very young age. And so for me, growing up, I was always active, which means I was always in shape and I was always fit and I never knew any different. Right? And fast forward, 2009, I became certified as a personal trainer thinking, “Hey, I’m in shape. I could help other people get in shape.” And so I embarked on that journey. And right away, I could tell there’s a disconnect between my mentality of, “Hey, you put in the work, you put down the junk food, you eat healthy food and you go to the gym. Boom, you see results. It shouldn’t be that hard.”

(00:04:53):

And, of course, my clients who didn’t grow up every single day of their life in shape like I did have struggled to stay consistent and they couldn’t understand why it was so hard for them. I would get frustrated with them when they would tell me excuses about why they messed up on the weekend or gave into temptation and those kinds of things. And then one of my clients at the time, it was my brother-in-law, he told me, “Drew, you don’t understand what it’s like for me, for people like me. Because for you, it’s always been easy. But for me, it’s always been hard and I can’t just do it like you do.” And I was like, “Oh, okay. Maybe you’re right. Maybe there’s something that I’m missing here.” And then my brain started to wonder and thinking of ideas of, “Okay, how can I gain a better understanding? What can I do to better understand the situation?”

(00:05:35):

And then, for whatever reason, this thought or idea entered my mind of, “What if you get fat on purpose?” And for some reason, that just clicked. And it’s like this light bulb went off in my head. “Oh, maybe that’s something I need to do.” And then I checked with my family and my friends pitched them in this idea. “What if I do this experiment where I stop exercising, gain a bunch of weight, document it. And what do you guys think?” And everyone’s like, “Yeah, that sounds crazy. You should totally do it.” And so that was the genesis of Fit2Fat2Fit. I felt like it was something I was called to do. I felt like a calling at the time. And so I embarked on that journey.

(00:06:15):

So Fit2Fat2Fit, in a nutshell, was my journey of individually gain weight. So six months. I couldn’t exercise. So no exercise. And then instead of Morgan Spurlock, who did Supersize Me, which he focused on McDonald’s or fast foods for 30 days, what I wanted to do for six months was focus on every day American foods that we grew up with here in America in the seventies and eighties. So super highly processed, delicious foods. I’m not going to lie, they do taste delicious.

(00:06:47):

Very convenient, very affordable, super cheap. And those are the types of foods that I focus on to gain the weight for those six months. And to make a long story short, I put 75 pounds of pure fat in those six months. It was one of the furthest, most humbling things I’ve ever done. And luckily, the story kind of caught on with the media and the story went viral. And that’s why most people know me as the Fit2Fat2Fit guy. So I gained 75 pounds in six months and then was fortunate enough to lose it the next six months. So that’s why it’s called Fit2Fat2Fit.

Ben Grynol (00:07:20):

And you rigorously documented it. But one thing to go into is the idea of the mental component. So you knew during this journey, there was a start to it and there was an end to it as far as goals.

Drew Manning (00:07:36):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:07:37):

You knew what you were doing. But mentally, how did things, if at all, how did it start to shift as far as, you physically feel different. That’s fine. You physically see yourself in the mirror. What was a mental component when you’re like, “Man.” Did you ever question, “What am I doing? I know what the end state is going to be.” But naturally, when you physically feel off and when you physically are less healthy mentally, that comes into it, too. So what was that like?

Drew Manning (00:08:06):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:08:06):

What were you feeling when you were sort of going through this journey?

Drew Manning (00:08:09):

Yeah, the mental and emotional component was the biggest surprise. I was not expecting it to be as psychologically challenging as it was. And that’s where I learned the most valuable lesson. So my identity, my entire life before this, was my body image. So Drew, the fit body guy. ‘Cause that’s all I ever knew. That was my identity. And that was my self image. And so the second I gained 10 pounds or 20 pounds, I had this identity crisis. I kind of freaked out. Like, “Wait a second. This isn’t me.” And so I wanted to go up to strangers and explain to them why I was overweight and wanted to show them before pictures of what I normally looked like and wanted to over explain about what I was doing so that they didn’t judge me. Because I kind of freaked out in those moments being overweight for the first time. I didn’t know how to handle it.

(00:09:02):

My identity was based on my body image looking a certain way. And so that was a very, very humbling experience for me. And I think for a lot of people who grew up their entire life out of shape, their body image becomes their self image. And what I mean by that is, their identity is solely based on their body. Like, “Oh, I’m the fit person.” Or, “I’m the fat person.” And then they tell themselves that story for years and decades, and they attach themselves to that story. And so when they try and lose weight, maybe they do lose some weight, but they still see themselves as that overweight person because that’s what they’ve told themselves and they believed that story for years. And so for me, the opposite of that became true for me. And so I kind of freaked out. So the psychological aspect of this was really, really difficult.

(00:09:43):

And then, at the time, I had two little girls that were two years old and around one. And my two year old, she wanted me to chase her around the house. And I remember as they got heavier, 50, 60 pounds into this, it became more difficult to chase her around the house because I wasn’t exercising. And so I remember one day, I came home from work. And by the way, I had a full-time job in the medical field during this whole experiment back. This is back in 2011. And I remember coming home, chasing her for a minute or two, being out of breath, being super exhausted mentally and physically. And I sat on the couch to take a break and she didn’t understand.

(00:10:21):

So she was trying to pull me up off the couch like, “Daddy, daddy. Come play.” And then I told her, “I can’t.” I was like, “Daddy can’t play right now. I need a break.” And she didn’t understand why. And she started crying. Right? And it broke my heart because in that moment, I realized, “This sucks.” And I’m this on purpose as an experiment. And I can’t play with my kid. How many millions of people out there can’t play with their kids or their grandkids because, not so much their weight, but because of their health and how out of shape they are. And how much that must hurt people inside. And then I started to realize, “Man.” This journey of transformation, even though I was doing this on purpose, helped me realize that transformation is way more mental and emotional than we think it is.

(00:11:00):

And that’s where the empathy started to come into play. And I started to empathize for people who might get stuck in the situation. And I can better understand why they get stuck here and still. The mental, emotional turmoil that they go through as they’re trying to better their lives and transform their bodies. And so for me, it was an eye opening experience. Like I said, it was truly humbling. And I learned a lot of empathy from this experiment. And I realized just how wrong I was. I admitted I was wrong to the world about my approach how easy I thought it was. Like, “Hey, if you just do it and there’s no excuses. And you just will power your way through it.” That was my mentality before I did it. Afterwards, I have a lot more empathy and compassion for people who struggle with body image issues and weight issues because this experiment really humbled me in that sense.

(00:11:55):

And now, I’m a big proponent of empathy first and trying to bring more empathy to the fitness industry so that people feel more understood instead of judged, because it’s a very judgemental industry based on body image. So that’s kind of what the mental and emotional side of things work for this first experiment back in 2011.

Ben Grynol (00:12:14):

Yeah. It’s wild. Because it sounds like such an average experience. You sort of regress to the mean do this thing. And that becomes this average, but there’s the self-fulfilling prophecy, which you touched on of, “Hey, this is my identity.” You become that. And it’s really hard to get out of that. And it sounds like you had somewhat of a mental defense mechanism where you had to defend why you were in this position. “Hey, I’m not normally like this.” Because your identity was still wrapped up, especially when it first started, it’s still wrapped up in the, “I’m not that person.”

Drew Manning (00:12:52):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:12:52):

But then once you start becoming the person, what was it like? As you progressed, so as you got closer to the six months, did you feel like you were looked at or maybe judged differently or interacted with differently for people who didn’t know you? People who know you would be like, “This is a point in the timeline. This is not the Drew we know.”

Drew Manning (00:13:15):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:13:15):

But people who don’t know you, did you have a very different lived experience as far as those interactions? And I ask because you hear it often where people will go through drastic health and wellness journeys and they say, “I can’t believe how differently I felt viewed or treated within society.”

Drew Manning (00:13:36):

Yeah. That’s a really good question. And I really was very observant about how I was treated. And here’s what I learned about my experiences. As a male in society, I feel like it’s more of the norm to be pudgier, huskier and be accepted by society. It seems like it’s okay. And I’m six foot two. So I carried my weight pretty well. People would tell me all the time, “Oh, you look normal. You look average. You look like a normal American.” Right? That’s kind of where we’re at today in society.

(00:14:06):

There were a few experiences where maybe I was judged, but maybe a lot of it was in my head. I remember one time I was at the grocery store and I had a shopping cart full of Cinnamon Toast Crunch and tons of chips and cookies and crackers and granola bars and soda and juices and all the good stuff, right? All this delicious stuff that you can find at the grocery store. And I remember, there was these three women behind me. I felt like they were kind of watching me check out with all of this junk food. And I feel like they were just staring at me the whole time judging me because I was unloading boxes of this ultra processed junk food. And I wanted to say something to them like, “Hey, ladies. Normally, I’m into spinach and broccoli, and kale and I eat chicken. And this isn’t my normal diet. And here’s my website.” I wanted to let them know that I’m normally an in-shape guy.

(00:14:59):

But in the moment, I stopped myself and I didn’t say anything. And I just let that feeling sink in. Whether they were judging me or not, I don’t know. But I think a lot of times, you feel judged if someone’s looking at me differently and you’re someone who’s overweight. I feel like, yes. It is judgmental. People can be judgmental, but at the same time, you don’t know. And so you make up assumptions or stories about the way people look at you like, “Oh, that person’s looking at me probably because I’m overweight.” And you make up a story about them and it becomes your reality.

(00:15:29):

And so that was an eye opening experience for me because I feel like it helped me empathize with those of my clients or people who are overweight who go out into society and maybe some people will look at them differently or maybe they judge them. Or maybe they’re thinking about, “Why are you eating a lot of junk food?” And it’s something that my clients or people who are overweight have to go through maybe on a daily basis. Maybe they’ve lost a hundred pounds and no one sees how hard they’ve worked to lose a hundred pounds and maybe they’ve got a hundred more to go. But someone coming in that day sees them meaning junk food like, “Oh, why are you so lazy? Why can’t you just be disciplined?” And you don’t know their backstory. You don’t know anything about them. And that’s kind of why it’s so important not to judge people based off of the chapter of your life that you’re in. Because they don’t get to receive the other chapters before that led you up to this point.

(00:16:19):

And so that’s why I’m a huge proponent of empathy. But yeah. There were some moments that were like that, but I will say, being female is probably different. ‘Cause I think females have it harder than males do in society because I think women are judged more harshly for their weight or for their physical looks or for their body image. So if I were to do this as a female, I know I did have a few females on my TV show who did this. And I feel like they probably were judged more harshly or treated differently versus a male that’s just maybe husky or a little bit more pudgy. And that seems to be more socially acceptable.

Ben Grynol (00:16:56):

When you were eating and you started gaining this weight, was it one of those things where you felt it immediately or was it a bit more gradual. Or all of a sudden you looked and, “Wow. I put on some pounds.” Because it’s easy, when you look at the goal post, the starting and the end point before you started getting back in shape, it’s very clear. They’re two very different bodies. But what was it as far as, was it the first month, second month? When was it that you noticed? You’re like, “Man, all this stuff that I’m eating is really catching up.” Physically, you will feel different. But then you noticed, you’re like, “I’m really starting to look different.”

Drew Manning (00:17:34):

Yeah. I would say the first month, the difference was pretty noticeable. I think the first week I gained 12 pounds, probably mostly water weight. Right? With all that junk food, going from eating super clean to eating ultra processed food. So a lot of water retention that first week. But yeah, the first month I think I gained 24 pounds, which was noticeable for me. Every pound was very noticeable for me. Everyone else would tell me, “Dude, you look fine. You look great still. You look normal.” But for me, I was freaking out because I know how much fat is normal for me.

(00:18:03):

But [inaudible 00:18:05] physical changes, I can remember the first month or so, I started snoring, which I don’t normally snore. And I was married at the time. So my wife would tell me that I was snoring, which affected my sleep. Which affected my energy levels throughout the day, which affected my cortisol. My ability to handle stress. When you’re sleep deprived, you’re not the same. Your hormones shift. Your personality is different. You’re constantly in survival mode. You feel like you need more stimulants or caffeine to stay awake because you’re constantly groggy, tired.

(00:18:38):

That’s what I try to show people on my second journey and did this in 2020, which I’m sure we’ll touch on. I used to your guys’ CGM, actually, to show the spikes and crashes from these blood sugar responses to the foods I was eating and how exhausting that is for your body. And how every time I would have a huge meal maybe with toast and bagels and Cinnamon Toast Crunch and juice for breakfast, get a huge spike maybe to 180 and then a huge crash to where I felt like I was going to die. And it creates this vicious cycle of dependency where you need that spike again. It feels like your body’s like, “Hey, we want that high. That felt good for a minute.”But then you feel miserable in between. And that’s physically exhausting.

(00:19:25):

So feeling the need to take naps all the time. And that happened around, I would say, month one. And then I was like, “Man, I’m already sick of this. And I have five more months of this. This is going to be hell.” And it really was. It really was. Food became my crutch. Food became my stress release, which is not a healthy stress release versus exercise or walking of some type, which normally is my stress release for my mental health. But now having that, food becomes your stress release and that’s not the healthiest stress release, as we both know, if you’re reaching for comfort foods. Walking up the stairs, my cardio was gone pretty quickly from what I remember. Within the first two months, walking up the stairs huffing and puffing. Having to hold my breath to bend over and tie my shoes or to pick something up. I’ve never experienced that before.

(00:20:16):

Yeah. And just your belly getting in the way all the time, food and falling off and dropping onto your belly. I had that happen a lot. Towards the end when my belly was so big, I would rest my hands on my belly or put a beer or a drink or something, using your ability to prop stuff up. And that was pretty interesting. So yeah. Throughout the journey, there was a lot of physical changes that were new to me that were humbling and definitely very eye opening. And all of it led to more and more compassion and more and more empathy for people that struggle with this. And yeah. It was a really eye opening experience doing that experiment.

Ben Grynol (00:20:55):

Yeah. Once you’re past that first month, especially for you because you go from [inaudible 00:21:01] physical shape. You’re in shape. You know physically what you feel like, you look like. But it’s easy to understand how, once you pass a certain point, the changes are less noticeable, maybe physically the way you feel. But physically in your body shape, it changes so gradually over time. It’s not like that first week when you picked up 12 and you’re like, “Well, some of that’s water weight.” Some of that’s from retaining water because you’re eating saltier foods, highly processed things. Right? Once you’re past that, it’s easy to understand how somebody looks and they’re like, “Wait, I’m 40 pounds heavier than I normally am.” But you don’t see. You get to this point where that catches up because of poor lifestyle habits. And I mean, we reinforce this all the time and it’s something that sounds like you saw it, too, firsthand where it’s like, it’s everything.

(00:22:01):

You develop apnea. Right? You develop that apnea from snoring. That leads to poor glucose control. That leads to poor biomarkers. That leads to poor sleep quality. And it goes on and on and on where it’s not just one thing.

Drew Manning (00:22:16):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:22:16):

And that’s the really slippery slope of going down these paths. So why don’t we bring it into, once you started getting physically healthy again? So you did this, but the first time you did everything, you were doing it … We’ll call it unguided.

Drew Manning (00:22:31):

Sure.

Ben Grynol (00:22:31):

You’re doing it without having access to what’s actually happening from a biometric standpoint inside my body. We’ll get to the 2020 when you did it again with the CGM.

Drew Manning (00:22:40):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:22:40):

But why don’t we go through that path? What was that like, as far as, you’re doing things without data and still learning and going in?

Drew Manning (00:22:51):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:22:52):

[inaudible 00:22:52] whole journey.

Drew Manning (00:22:53):

Yeah. So the journey back, it was very interesting. Part of me was excited, right? Because I’m like, “Man, I want to get my body back. I want to get back in shape as soon as possible.” Right? But then another part of me was really scared. ‘Cause I’ve never been 75 pounds overweight. I’ve never had to lose that much weight. And I had these doubts or these fears of, “What if I’m stuck like this? What if I can’t lose the weight and I have this national audience watching me?” Because I went on a bunch of TV shows like Dr. Oz, Good Morning America, Jay Leno. So everyone was following this journey and I’m like, “Man, I hope this works.” And so I had a lot of pressure, a lot of fear, a lot of doubts about that. But I remember I had to go cold turkey from eating processed junk food, about five to 6000 calories per day, to eating whole foods, around 2000 calories per day. And I had six months to lose the weight.

(00:23:45):

And I remember the first two weeks were the most grueling hellish experience that I’ve never experienced before because I’ve never had to just go cold turkey, eating all this junk food, which felt really good for six months, right? Training my body, my mind to react to a certain way. And then now, all of a sudden, not being able to have that. My body went through withdrawal symptoms as if it was getting off of a drug. And I remember my body fought back against me, which was so interesting. It was a very big surprise. ‘Cause I was thinking, “Oh, day one. I have my green smoothie in the morning, have my salad and my protein and veggies throughout the day. And before you know it, I’ll have my six pack back in no time.” Right? And I kind of went into it thinking, “Oh, yeah. I’m going to feel great.”

(00:24:31):

But I felt miserable. I had headaches. I was grumpy. I was moody. The food did not taste nearly as good as I remember it tasting. I felt hungry all the time. And it felt like my body was like, “Hey, where is this high that we’ve had for the past six months? We don’t like this feeling.” And it took a good two weeks of going through that hell for it to improve. But what I learned from that, this light bulb went off. And I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is what my clients have been telling me. When I give them a meal plan and say, ‘Okay, here’s your meal plan. You follow this.’” And expected them to be perfect at it. I couldn’t understand before why they couldn’t just will power their way through it and just do it.

(00:25:05):

And for me, finally experiencing that of just how hard it is not just physically, but mentally, to stay consistent when, for so long, you’ve trained your brain to react to stress or stimulus in a certain way by having a little dopamine hit every time you have a bowl of Cinnamon Toast Crunch or a bowl of ice cream. Or well, whatever delicious junk food that it is that does that to you. Not having that all of a sudden, your body kind of freaks out and kind of fights back against you. Like, “Hey, where’s our drug? Where’s this thing you’ve had?” And so it was very eye opening for me. But once again, empathy came into play where I’m like, “Oh my gosh.” I realized how wrong I was. This is why it’s so difficult. Because the emotional connection to food, I totally underestimated that. I didn’t realize that it was something to even talk about.

(00:25:54):

I was like, “No. You just will power your way through it. And you just do it.” Until I had that experience myself where I’m like, “Oh, I see now. I understand why it’s so hard. It’s not just a matter of willpower.” It’s the emotional connection to food that we build up where, over time, we’ve trained our brain and we programmed our brain to respond to stress by getting a little bit of an escape, if you will, or a numbing mechanism by having this little dopamine release every time we have a delicious food. And then over the years, we train our brain. Any time we have emotional pain or emotional challenge in life, we don’t like to stay in that pain. As humans, we look for releases. We want to run away from the pain.

(00:26:34):

And so, guess what the most accessible drug is to feel better instantly? It’s not cocaine or heroin. It’s the ultra process junk food that we have available 24/7 here in the United States, for example, where anytime of the day, we can go get a dopamine release, just cocaine or heroin would do. But instead, you can do it multiple times per day and it’s legal and it tastes really good and it’s affordable. Right? And everyone, for the most part, eats this type of food. And so we train a brain for years and decades. And then all of a sudden we’re like, “Okay, I’m going to diet. I’m going to lose weight. I’m not going to touch sugar.” It’s like, “Well, good luck.” It’s like telling a drug addict, “All right, no more drugs. You just got to will power your way through this.” And this is why it’s so difficult for people to get off of these addictive substances.

(00:27:23):

Same thing for food. And this is where my eyes were opened and I was awake to, “Oh, this is why people struggle with transformation. It’s because we expect them to follow this diet as if it’s no problem. You just will power your way through it. And it should be easy for you.” But for me, it really opened my eyes to power of emotional eating and why I would say a majority of people struggle. It’s not that they don’t care about themselves or they don’t want to lose the weight. It’s just like any other drug addict trying to get off of a drug. We have to have compassion and understanding empathy and help them on the mental, emotional side, rather than just saying, “What’s wrong with you? Don’t be stupid. Just do this.” Which is kind of the mentality, the tough mentality of, “Just do it,” which works for a small percentage of the population. But obviously, the majority of people, they struggle with the emotional eating because it’s years and decades of programming that we’re just trying to instantly say, “Hey, don’t think that way. Just think this way.”

(00:28:20):

And for me, that was first experience of losing the weight. But I will say after about two or three weeks, your body does adjust. The cravings aren’t always that intense. They do become more manageable. And so for me, I realized, “Okay, if I just stick with it and can make it through that first two to four weeks, then it becomes easier.” Right? And this is why it’s so important to maybe have a coach or accountability partner or a group of people doing this with you. Because if you’re doing it alone, it’s so easy. Just like, “No one’s watching.” Like, “Oh, my kids have sugary cereal in the cupboard. Or maybe there’s some ice cream in the freezer. And any time I get too stressed or too overwhelmed or too uncomfortable, I could always still and reach for that time of the day. And it’s always there.” And so that’s what I’ve realized from that experience of trying to lose the weight was just how powerful the emotional connection with food really is.

Ben Grynol (00:29:13):

Yeah. And you become so physically dependent on those carbs or the sugar-

Drew Manning (00:29:18):

[inaudible 00:29:19] I did.

Ben Grynol (00:29:19):

Because they become a part of your diet. And so it’s like, naturally, you’re going through this withdrawal. And if you use a strategy of just power through it, like you said, on average, people might not respond to that.

Drew Manning (00:29:32):

No.

Ben Grynol (00:29:33):

And the challenge is, it makes them regress back to this old behavior of feeling stressed. Like, “Oh, Billy frustrated me at work.” And so you reach for the bag of Twizzlers because it feels kind of good.

Drew Manning (00:29:44):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:29:44):

Even though you are trying to be disciplined. “I’m just going to have one.”

Drew Manning (00:29:48):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:29:49):

Assume somebody gets off of it. Right? So they have the best intent to make significant lifestyle changes. The next layer of the challenge becomes understanding how many things sugar gets hidden in.

Drew Manning (00:30:03):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:30:03):

So you say, now I’ve stopped doing the venti Frappuccino every day or once a week, whatever it was for your treat. I’m only going to order the ice coffee at Starbucks. You got to know, the standard ice coffee at Starbucks comes with the sweetener in it. You have to order it without the sweetener. So it’s like, you still are, from a cellular level, from a physical standpoint, you’re still getting that sugar that you’re trying to avoid. And that’s where it gets so much harder to make these changes unless you really start to strip things down to a foundation and say, “I understand that having …” Assume somebody eats meat and cruciferous vegetables. “I’m only having the chicken and the brussel sprouts. And I make it at home.” Throwing olive oil in. That is how you start to make these changes. But it takes a really long time and a lot of mental effort to stick with these habits. They don’t happen overnight.

Drew Manning (00:31:01):

Yeah. It’s so true. And it’s unfortunate that we live in a society where, to be healthy is the hard route. That’s the uphill battle. To get organic, grass fed food. And you kind of have to go out of your way. You have to spend more money. You have to spend more mental energy, putting the effort to researching, studying. Okay, what has sugar. What doesn’t have sugar. Meal prepping all this food. Spending the money on all that. And knowing how to do that. And that’s why people are turned off by trying to live a healthy lifestyle because they’re like, “Man, this is so much effort, day in and day out. And I have to worry about kids and finances and spouse and other relationships and other adult things.”

(00:31:40):

That you’re like, you’re putting mental energy into all these other things. And now all of a sudden to be healthy, which you don’t have a lot of time at the end of the day, especially if you have little kids and you’re just in survival mode all day long. It’s like, “I got to go up to the gym for an hour. And I got to meal prep for an hour.” On top of all these other adult things you have to do. You only have so much mental energy you can put out every single day. And then add in diet and exercise and staying consistent and disciplined, this is why so many people struggle because we’ve made it such an uphill battle. It’s so much easier just to push a button on your phone, Door Dash some food, have it arrive fresh. It smells good. It tastes good. It fills you up. It’s probably cheaper than real food, whole food. And it tastes good and it feeds your family. And you’re like, “Well, it’s calories. So we’re surviving.”

(00:32:27):

And so that’s the hard part is that we live in society where we’ve made it so hard for people to want to live a healthy lifestyle. You got to pay extra. And, like I said, you have to really put it even more mental energy to make yourself healthy. So that’s why so many people gravitate towards path of least resistance. And then we judge them for just not having more will power. This is what my whole mission is with Fit2Fat2Fit, doing this twice now is, empathy first.

(00:32:56):

There’s a good quote and I think it’s Teddy Roosevelt said this. “No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.” And that’s kind of what Fit2Fat2Fit, my whole movement is about is, you could have all the knowledge in the world about how to change someone’s body composition and how to tweak things so that it all worked and they lose weight and they lose fat and all that stuff. That’s great. That’s awesome. That’s super important. But if that person doesn’t feel listened to or heard or safe or cared about, most likely that person isn’t going to listen to the trainers, the fitness influencers out there, the Instagram models that are saying, “Hey, just follow this diet.”

(00:33:35):

There’s this disconnect that exists between those ultra fit people and your average mom or dad that doesn’t have … Or their priority isn’t to have a six pack or get ripped or shredded. Sure, if there’s an easy button to do that, awesome. But they’re like, how are they going to fit in two hour long workouts and meal prepping and all these things that they think they have to do. And it’s really difficult. But what I’ve learned is that, if someone feels understood, they feel cared about, they feel safe, then they’re more willing to listen to the knowledge that you have. But I don’t know how to connect with people. And this is where empathy can be such a driving force, not just in the fitness industry, but the world in general.

(00:34:17):

And so that’s what led me into doing this journey a second time, not to lead you on where we’re going with this interview. But that’s kind of what led me to do this journey a second time in 2020 was because I felt like the first time around, it was a lesson for me to learn. Okay, I need to learn more empathy. Now doing it a second time, it’s like, “Hey.” Especially in 2020 when the world was so divided with everything going on in the world with the riots and the pandemic and the division on social media. And just, man. I felt like we lost this ability to empathize with people and listen to understand, instead of listen to respond or listen to judge or critique or criticize. We’re so quick to do those things. We don’t really truly sit down and listen to understand someone.

(00:35:00):

And that’s why there’s a good book that I read by Oprah called What Happened to You? And instead of asking, “What’s wrong with you? Why are you the way you are? And what’s wrong with you for thinking that way?” It’s more about getting curious and asking, “What happened to you that led you down this path of where you are today? I want to understand you. And once I understand you and you feel understood, then maybe you’re more willing to listen and become more aware of why you are the way you are and why you do what you do.” To be able to then thoughtfully respond to those situations that you’ve just been reacting to on the subconscious level and just kind of going about almost on autopilot for the past decade or two. Now that you’re more aware, you can become more responsible and become more in control of reactions. And then from there, that’s how you fix this emotional eating addiction or food addiction or any addiction really is self awareness.

(00:35:54):

As you become more aware, you become more in control. And one more good quote from Anthony de Mello. He says, “What you are aware of, you are in control of. But what you’re not aware of, controls you.” And that’s so powerful for learning how to become more self aware. And so this is where my brand has taken a turn for focusing more on the mental, emotional side of fitness instead of the physical side. What’s the science and the best diet, the best workout and the best supplement to optimize your body? For me, it’s about doing the inner work first. Right? And then the working out later on. ‘Cause if you can’t figure out the inner work first and figure out why you do what you do and what your triggers are, then you’re just going to struggle from diet to diet to diet, just kind of burning your wheels, if you will. Spinning your wheels, just kind of trying to figure out, “Well, what’s wrong with me? Why can’t I just stick to a diet?”

(00:36:55):

But once you do the inner work first, then all the physical stuff, diet, the exercise, all that stuff becomes so much easier because now you know what your triggers are, you’re more self-aware, and you’re coming from a place of self love and self compassion instead of a place of self hate. And this is kind of my new approach to the health and fitness industry is, “Hey.” For most people, they’re not the Dave Goggins of the world. They’re not going to have the discipline just to beat themselves up and push themselves to run a hundred miles and discipline themselves overnight. For most of the population, it’s going to take doing the inner work first and figuring out why they do what they do and what their triggers are. And maybe it’s holding on trauma or years of programming and learning how to release that. And then, the diet and exercise becomes so much easier at that point. Does that make sense?

Ben Grynol (00:37:46):

Yeah. And it’s creating the conditions for people to put their-

Drew Manning (00:37:49):

[inaudible 00:37:50].

Ben Grynol (00:37:49):

Hand on the wheel. As soon as you’ve got the hand on the wheel, then you’re in control of the car. But without it, it’s exactly what you said. It’s-

Drew Manning (00:37:59):

Yeah. [inaudible 00:38:00].

Ben Grynol (00:38:00):

A much different process to go through this, “I’m going to do this thing to reach this result.” But you’re not creating the habit formation and saying, “Hey, this is the identity. This is who I am.” Because it’s okay. If there is a detour, when you’ve got your hand on the wheel, you know how to get back around the detour. It’s when you don’t have your hand on the wheel that the car is just sort of squiring down the road. That’s a really dangerous path to be on.

Drew Manning (00:38:24):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:38:25):

In 2020, that was such a wild time, I think, around the world, where you saw almost these two camps. You saw people who said, “Wow, I was drastically impacted from a health and wellness perspective. I wasn’t as physically active as I normal normally am.” And that might have led people down a different path than they were used to. And then there was the other side where people said, “This is my time.” Right? And people who typically didn’t focus as much on physical fitness or nutrition, took this turn. It was this catalyst. It was the tipping point that put them into jumpstart mode. And that was an interesting thing. But in 2020, you decided to do the journey again.

Drew Manning (00:39:13):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:39:14):

But you had a CGM this time, which was a lot different because you could start to see what was actually happening. So why don’t you walk through that and what some of the learnings were, as far as the differences that you saw by seeing how food affected your health, especially when you’re going through and you’re going, “Holy smokes. I didn’t know it was that.” Right? You don’t understand until you see that feedback loop of how detrimental, and I don’t want to oversell and be hyperbolic. But how detrimental over time processed food, sugar, things that are objectively not good for you. The air quotes Twinkies of the world. These are things that make a very significant impact on people’s health and wellness over a long period of time.

Drew Manning (00:40:01):

Yeah. So doing it a second time, I learned so much from that first experiment where, the first experiment, to be totally honest with you, I really didn’t know what I was doing. I was just kind of documenting as best as I could. It was me and my wife, at the time just kind of doing our best to document as much as we could. But we’d have access to the technology that we have now. Social media wasn’t what it is today. And so this time around, I really had time to plan it out, preparing. Make it more entertaining, but also more educational. So this is why I brought on a doctor to do blood work at least once a month, and sometimes even more. Used a CGM device. I used my WHOOP to track my sleep, my recovery. Yeah, all that stuff. Just to kind of show people more data of what was happening to my physical body on outside, but also, on the inside.

(00:40:48):

And then also, I would document and video a bunch of it to show people the mental and emotional changes that I was noticing. And so the CGM was a big component of this, especially as I was gaining weight. Because I thought, “This is a really cool opportunity to show people what happens when you eat a standard American breakfast.” And I don’t know how old you are, Ben. But me growing up in the eighties, I remember seeing commercials of a complete American breakfast. And it was usually a bowl of cereal, a piece of toast, and a glass of orange juice or something along those lines. And that was kind of like, “Hey, this is part of a complete American breakfast.” And so we’ve been programmed and marketed to like, “Hey, this is what we’re supposed to eat.” Lots of carbs. Right? The food pyramid. Lots of carbs for every single meal.

(00:41:31):

And so I want to show people just exactly what this does to your body and your mind as you eat this food. And so, yeah. I embarked on that. And I would show people my CGM data, my blood spikes and my crashes. Blood sugar spikes and crashes throughout the day, multiple times with, “Hey, let’s try this juice. Let’s try this bowl of spaghetti.” Or whatever it is. But I also, what’s interesting is, I threw in these little mini experiments with the most popular diets out there. Keto, paleo, vegan, and vegetarian, in my opinion. And kind of put those four diets to the test as I gained the weight to show people like, “Hey, just because you’re keto, just because you’re vegan, there is an unhealthy way to do it. Which is what a lot of people gravitate towards.” So I did a little mini experiment with these diets where I show my blood sugar levels eating the dirty version, if you will, of keto or paleo or vegan.

(00:42:27):

Because, as you know, once a diet becomes popular, becomes mainstream, marketing companies jump all over that. And so now you have keto cookies and keto ice cream and keto breads. And you have vegan cookies and vegan junk food and paleo pancakes and paleo treats and all the stuff, right? We have all the comfort foods that fit into those categories. So people do these diets and they’re like, “Oh, man. I really miss pizza. I’m going to get this keto pizza.” Or, “I really miss,” Something. Cookies or bread. I’m going to get this vegan version of it. And before you know it, they’re eating most of their calories from these processed foods that fit into these categories thinking, “Hey. Well, I’m healthier because I’m doing this diet or that diet.” And so I show my blood sugar responses for those dirty versions of those diets. And that was very interesting to show what was happening, not just to my blood sugar levels, but also, my sleep.

(00:43:22):

My blood glucose levels, my lipids, as well. My triglycerides, that was what was really surprising. My triglycerides skyrocketed dirty vegan, dirty vegetarian week. It got into five hundreds, I believe, on the vegetarian week. Four hundreds on the dirty vegan week. And keto and paleo, obviously, weren’t healthy either. But I wanted to show people, “Hey, if you’re going to do these diets, here’s what not to do.” But yeah, I had a ton of data, had my doctor doing blood work and doing all kinds of testing just to make it as educational as possible to really open up people’s eyes to, “Here’s what happens to your body when you eat these types of foods day in and day out.”

(00:44:04):

But then also, here’s what happens to your mind, your relationships. Because, at the time, I was in a relationship, had a girlfriend. And my daughters were older now. So phase of life. And it affected my relationships. Doing this journey, a lot of people don’t think food affects who you are or affects your personality, but it really does. And I’ll show you why. Because like, I mentioned, my sleep was disrupted. Eating this food, drinking alcohol, your sleep, you don’t sleep as efficiently. And I tracked that through my sleep data, using my WHOOP. And so I’m waking up every morning groggy, sleep deprived, in survival mode, constantly in the red with each night of sleep that I was trying to get as much sleep as I could. But when you wake up, you feel exhausted. So what do you do? You take in some type of caffeine or stimulants. Coffee with a bunch of sugar, like you mentioned. And you feel awake. You feel alert for a minute. Right? You get a blood sugar spike, you feel good for a second. Right?

(00:45:04):

And then maybe an hour or two later, you have a huge crash. And you’re like, “I need some more foods.” So you get some muffins, you get some bagels, banana. Some juice, whatever it is. You get another spike. “Okay, I’m good for a little bit.” And then, boom. Another crash. And you’re like, “Man, I’m exhausted at 12 o’clock. I got to take a nap. Let me do some more coffee with some more sugar to get myself up for another few hours.” And then, crash. And then having to feel like you need to take a nap again. And then you repeat that all the way. And then at nighttime, you drink a few drinks to relax. And then your sleep is affected by drinking alcohol late at night. And then you repeat that cycle. So you’re constantly in survival mode and your ability to handle stress is diminished.

(00:45:47):

So you have so much patience with your kids or with your spouse or significant other dealing with stress. Right? And now that you’re super physically unhealthy, your ability to handle that stress is severely diminished. So then you’re just reactive. You’re not the nicest version of you. You’re not the most thoughtful version of you that you would want to be. And this is how living an unhealthy physical lifestyle day in and day out, year after year, decade after decade, affects who you are, the core of who you are, affects your personality. And this is why your physical health is tied to your mental, emotional, and spiritual health. A lot of people don’t think that’s true, but the way you eat, the way you sleep, the lack of exercise that you get, affects your ability to show up in these other relationships that are super important to you. You love your kids, you love your spouse, you love your significant other, but you’re not the best version of yourself for them by abusing your body this way day in and day out, year after year, decade after decade.

Ben Grynol (00:46:44):

Yeah, it gets so challenging because it just compounds over time. And it gets worse and worse.

Drew Manning (00:46:50):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:46:51):

One of the things that you saw was all this data through the CGM related to glucose. And it’s something that we talk about often, as CGMs are something that we’re very focused on from the software side of things right now. But when it comes to weight loss, it’s inevitable that insulin plays such a huge, huge part of it. And over time, as people start to consume more sugar, more carbohydrates, things that cause significant spikes in glucose and drops where people go hypoglycemic, you become insulin resistant.

Drew Manning (00:47:22):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:47:23):

So what did you start to see when you’re doing all the [inaudible 00:47:26] blood work every month and you’re starting to see some of these markers change, what was it that you saw change with your insulin over time that made a big difference in the way that you were actually starting to metabolize some of these foods?

Drew Manning (00:47:42):

Yeah, that’s a really good question. I’m trying to go off of memory here. So I don’t really recall everything ’cause this is a couple years now. But here’s the thing. I will say, genetics does play factor because even though I was unhealthy, my levels, all my lipids did get unhealthy levels, I remember my doctor telling me, he’s like, “Look, your body can handle X amount of stress. Each person’s genetics are different.” Very fortunately, I come from a family of good genetics. So even though I was getting these huge spikes and crashes throughout the day, which did not feel good to my body, he did say, “This is different than someone that I’ve seen do this for decades.” Right? Some people have been doing this for decades. At that point, their level of insulin resistance is different than my level of insulin resistance doing it for four months. Right?

(00:48:35):

I did it for four months the second time. So I do want to make that comparison. In no way was my experiment similar to someone who’s 50 years old, 60 pounds overweight. They’ve been that way for 20 years now. And they just have never really tried to improve their situation. Maybe they’re on some type of medication to help control insulin. And maybe they’re even pre-diabetic, but they haven’t change their habits at all. That kind of abuse year after year, that’s the kind of stuff that you need to be worried about versus someone like me. This was a mini experiment, if you will. And so even though my numbers were in the red short term, they bounced back pretty quickly. Going back to fit, when I started eating healthy again and exercising, my doctor was like, “Man, I wish everyone had your genetics.” Because my ability to bounce back into the healthy levels with my insulin, with my lipids. Was pretty remarkable.

(00:49:33):

And I am still quite young. 40, 41 now. And I don’t have the numbers in front of me. I wish I had the numbers in front of me to show you exactly what happened. But from what I remember, that was the trend of bad, bad, bad, bad for four months. Pretty bad towards the end. We’re looking at some numbers and I can’t remember which ones were the worst, but it got pretty bad. But then very quickly after about a month of eating healthy food, exercising, meditating, going for a walk every day out in nature, those kinds of numbers came back pretty quickly as I stayed consistent with my healthy lifestyle. So I just want to put that out there to make people aware. My journey is totally different than someone who’s been overweight for years or decades. I don’t want to make that comparison. But that was the trend. So hopefully that answers your question a little bit.

Ben Grynol (00:50:27):

Yeah. When you were doing it the second time, did you have a different level of confidence in yourself? Because the first time you’re doing it, it sounds like it was one of those things where you maybe doubted it at first. You’re like, “Is this going to come off? Is this my new state of being?” But was it like, the second time around, did you have a little more confidence of, “I can do this? I just need to create the right conditions and start to adapt.” Were there different things that you learned or what did it look like?

Drew Manning (00:50:57):

Yep.

Ben Grynol (00:50:57):

I mean, it’s very much in this decade of tech where you’ve got different tools in front of you that help you through this journey. But mentally, that doesn’t change. You see different data, you have different tools, different mechanisms, but the mental component is something that, strip away the tools, it’s still, you have to find it. Create that foundation within yourself to be able to get fit again.

Drew Manning (00:51:21):

Yeah, going into the second time, I was a little bit more confident with my ability to lose the weight and get it off and be back to fit. I wasn’t too worried about getting stuck there just because I’ve been through it. And then also, at the same time, I enjoyed myself a lot more this time around. I was not as attached to my body image as self image. And so that wasn’t really a factor for me this time around. I was totally confident taking my shirt off. I knew that this was temporary. I knew my body would bounce back. And plus, over 10 years or later, my knowledge and my understanding of my body and nutrition and exercise had, I would say, it had been upgraded. So I was confident in my approach this time around having done it once already, knowing that I was going to get back to fit this time around.

(00:52:08):

I used more of a ketogenetic intermittent fasting approach with my diet. And then my exercise was very similar. Five days a week, 45 minutes a day of exercise. Lots of weight lifting in there. Some high intensity interval training cardio. Yeah. I wasn’t in the same mindset of like, “Oh, am I going to get stuck?” I definitely had some fears. They’re definitely were some plateaus, which happen. But I knew that in the long run, I had to trust the process and I had been through it before. So I wasn’t too worried about it the second time.

Ben Grynol (00:52:44):

So not everyone has access to WHOOP and things like LEVELS or CGM, using different blood tracking, taking blood tests through whether it’s Scarlet or Inside Tracker.

Drew Manning (00:52:57):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (00:52:57):

Not everyone has access to this, but if you were to give some takeaways or some recommendations as far as, what can people do if they don’t have these tools in front of them. Somebody is sitting there right now-

Drew Manning (00:53:10):

Yep.

Ben Grynol (00:53:10):

And saying, “I just want to start. And I’ve tried and I’ve tried.” And they’re on this Sisyphean endeavor of pushing the rock up the hill, but not quite getting there. What’s something, if you’ve got some takeaways, that people can do to take this journey, if you’re breaking it up into micro-steps. I know we talked about the mindset part of it and the foundation. What are some tactical things that you think about?

Drew Manning (00:53:33):

Yeah. I mean, honestly, there’s a few things that I do that help my clients. And the ultimate thing is training your brain to become comfortable in uncomfortable situations. And by training your brain to become comfortable in uncomfortable situations, that tends to carry over into the whole diet and exercise and consistency and discipline part. Because let’s be honest, transformation is uncomfortable. And we are a society of comfort now. And we have all the comforts at our fingertips. So any time of the day, it’s hard. You kind of have to go out of your way to be uncomfortable nowadays. There’s a pill or a potion for a headache or a stomach ache or you’re too hot or you’re too cold. Or whatever. We have all the comforts we could possibly have.

(00:54:12):

So the list that I have for people to get started, it has nothing with exercise at all. So what I have them do is things that, it’s not going to get a six pack. But this helps the train the brain to become comfortable in uncomfortable situations. So the first thing I have them do is make their bed every single morning. What does that have to do with weight loss? Nothing. But it’s a discipline thing. It’s something you can be perfect in every single day. First thing in the morning, you get up, you make your bed before even thinking about it. And that’s one thing you can be perfect in.

(00:54:39):

The next thing I have people do is some form of meditation. Five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes. However long you want to do it for. Being still, sitting with your thoughts. This is very uncomfortable for a large percentage of the population, especially here in the Western hemisphere. And that’s training your brain to become comfortable in uncomfortable situations. So meditation. It also helps build self-awareness. It helps you be more present and helps you to observe your thoughts rather than attaching yourself to your thoughts. So meditation is a huge part of that.

(00:55:08):

The next thing I’ll have them do is take a cold shower. Or at least 60 seconds in cold water of some type. And what that does, once again, is an opportunity to train the brain to become comfortable in a very uncomfortable situation, cold water. What happens? We usually tense up and our fight or flight is activated in that moment. And we want to run. We want to get out of there. We don’t like that feeling. But what I tell people to do is learn how to control your breathing. Slow your breathing down. It sucks. It’s going to suck. Embrace the suck for just 60 seconds. Start out your shower with warm water so you’re not freaking out right away. At the very end, turn the water onto freezing cold. Count to 60, right? And try and slow your breathing down.

(00:55:53):

And it gets easier over time. But what you’re doing is you’re telling your brain and your body, “Hey. Yes, this sucks. This is very uncomfortable. But we’re not going to die. We’re safe. We can do this hard thing.” And then that tends to carry over when they have to broccoli versus pizza. Or when they have to push themselves during a workout where their muscles are burning, they’re huffing and puffing. And they’re sweating and it’s very comfortable. To say, “Hey, I know this is hard. But we can do hard things. We’re safe. We’re going to be okay. We’re not going to die.” And that their ability to do hard things throughout the day, it increases by doing this stuff consistently.

(00:56:30):

The next thing I have them do is gratitude journal. Find three to five things you’re grateful before every single day. And what that does is helps to rewire the brain to be more grateful or fulfilled with where they’re at now in their life. Because when people go on a physical transformation, they seem unhappy. And they’re like, “Well, one day when I lose the weight. One day when I get this body, then I’ll be happy with myself. Then I’ll love myself.” And it’s always about one day, which never seems to come for people. So learning how to be grateful and fulfilled now, even as imperfect as your life is, you’ll still be able to find things you’re grateful for. And so that helps to rewire the brain, as well.

(00:57:09):

And then positive affirmations would be another thing. Saying three to five things positive about yourself, out loud to yourself. Whether you’re looking into a mirror or out loud for yourself to hear. That is really powerful. It affects you at the cellular level because a lot of people are really hard on themselves. There’s a lot of people who come from a place of self hate. If you can learn to love yourself and operate out a place of self love, then you don’t have to see this diet and exercise thing as a chore or something that you have to do in order to get this body, in order to be accepted by society, in order to be loved by everyone. You are choosing to do this for you because you realize that you’re worth it to feel good, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. And diet and exercise, even though they might suck in the moment or be harder in the moment, in the long run, we all can admit that those things make us feel better in the long run.

(00:57:59):

In the short term, you’re sore, you’re tired, you’re hungry. You want pizza. You want the junk mood. Sure. But in the long run, you’re sleeping better. You have more energy throughout the day. You’re more positive. You have better digestion. You have better sex. You have better relationships because you’re feeling better. You’re sleeping better and you feel strong. You feel healthy, right? You’re not huffing and puffing walking up the stairs. So we all can admit that living a healthy lifestyle makes us feel better in the long run.

(00:58:27):

And so these types of things are some things that everyone can do to get started. And I promise you, if you do these things first, try it after 30 days doing a list of those things and then see how much easier the diet, the exercise component is once you’ve trained your brain to become comfortable in uncomfortable situations. And so it’s not a magic pill. It’s not going to fix everything, but it is a unique approach, a different approach, that I’ve found works really well for people, especially those who have struggled with emotional eating or self-acceptance or self love. Start there, and then we’ll worry about the diet and exercise stuff lately.

Ben Grynol (00:59:03):

Yeah. It’s such a good thing to touch on, the idea of creating healthy foundation. Health and wellness, there’s almost this inaccurate mental model we have that health equals good nutrition plus physical activity. And that is somewhat true. It absolutely is somewhat true. That’s a very significant component. But the sleep, the gratitude, the mindfulness, all the other things that come with having that foundation, you have to have all these pieces there.

(00:59:35):

And those other pieces don’t have to do with the food. They don’t have to do with the physical activity. Those are the byproduct of having a good foundation where it’s like, yeah. You can go do those other things a lot easier and everything feels better when you get the cohesion and the interconnectedness. But without the foundation, it’s kind of like, you got to crawl before you walk before you run. And that’s really what you’re saying, which is such a good way of framing it.

Drew Manning (01:00:02):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (01:00:02):

So what’s a good place, if we’re going to throw some plugs out, where can people find you? What’s a good place for people to connect with you and learn more about everything that you [inaudible 01:00:12]-

Drew Manning (01:00:12):

Yeah. So it’s super simple. All my social media handles and website and podcasts and book is just Fit2Fat2Fit. So fit, number two, fat, number two, fit. And you’ll be able to find me on all the social media channels with that handle. And the website, the podcast, and the book are all there, too.