#154 – Building an engaged online community | Willa Tellekson-Flash & Cissy Hu

Online communities that surround online brands can evolve quickly, and when the conversations start to develop between members or are led independently by extra-engaged VIP members, that’s where the real magic comes into play. But you have to be intentional about what kind of community you build before you begin to scale. On this episode, Cissy Hu talks with Willa Tellekson-Flash about her role as a moderator, how to create a safe virtual community, and why moderators shouldn’t be afraid of confrontation.

05:33 – Be the first to share

Willa found that if you’re willing to be the first one to open up about sensitive topics such as finance, other people feel more comfortable sharing about themselves as well.

I think a lot of it comes down to being comfortable sharing first. I found that particularly true at Public and in conversations about money with friends. If you’re willing to be the first person to say, “This is how much credit card debt I have.” Or, “These are how much I have in student loans.” Or, “This is how much I make in a year.” It makes it clear to other people that you’re comfortable being part of the conversation and that you’re not ashamed to talk about those things. And so they shouldn’t have to be either. But I think the second piece of that is asking questions is really helpful. It’s so much easier to participate in a conversation when you’ve been actively welcomed into the conversation versus just waiting for someone to feel comfortable jumping in. I will asterisk that by saying, if it’s a topic that is sensitive, it may help to say, “Are you comfortable if I ask you how much money you make? Are you comfortable if I ask you if you have a 401(k) or something like that.” And then assuming that it is okay with the other person to follow that with specific questions, but opening the door for people, I think makes it easier for them to walk in and participate with you.

11:38 – The mission of Public

Public’s goal is to help people become better investors. For Willa, it’s not just about vanity metrics; it’s about helping people become more financially knowledgeable.

Our mission at Public is to help people be better investors. And so that makes it pretty easy to say to ourselves as a team, we have a role to play in doing that. This isn’t just engagement for engagement’s sake. We don’t just want the vanity metrics of X number of people open the app and spend time here. The value that we want to be providing people is that through spending time on Public, through participating in conversations in the community, people are gaining financial literacy and confidence in themselves as investors. We recently sort of more formally defined our workflow and partnered more closely with the editorial team who produces different types of content that hone in on things happening in the markets, in different Publicly traded companies, sort of in the world in general under this umbrella of member advancement. Our goals are really helping our members to advance as investors. I think that that allows us to have a clearer focus of what we’re prioritizing. And so when we are asking questions and engaging with community members, it’s not just going to be, “What did you invest in today and why?” There’s certainly a place for that, but we’re spending more time thinking about providing context for what’s happening in the markets.

19:07 – Follow up on conversations

If you want to show people that you value them, follow up on the conversations you’ve had with them. It shows that you were paying attention and that you care.

Another way I think to show that you value folks’ participation is to follow up on things that you know about them in conversations too. Going back to a similar example that I mentioned earlier, if I knew that you were really interested in athletics and companies like Nike and Lululemon and whatever it may be, then if there’s a Lululemon earnings report or something like that, reaching back out to you or tagging you in a post about something and saying, “Hey, I know you were interested in this company and the earnings report came out today. What do you think?” Being particular about who you’re looping people in and when and why and people feel that. They understand that was intentional. I think that makes people feel like they are known within a community, which encourages them to spend time there.

20:38 – Be curious

Curiosity is an important part of being a moderator. You need to show that you are invested in people, and you can do that through your words and actions.

I think curiosity is a big one. Asking thoughtful questions and wanting to ask more questions based on what people say. I really don’t like small talk. I think it just feels like sort of a waste of time. There’s so many more interesting things about us than what we do and where we live. Being curious enough to ask people questions about things that you’ve heard them mention or seems like they are interested in. I think, again goes back to what we were just talking about of showing by action that you value someone in that space, whether it be physical or virtual.

21:24 – Be an active listener

You have to be aware of your community’s needs before you can address them. Active listening allows for follow-up and a continuing conversation.

Actively listening I think is another really important piece of building community, because it allows for that follow up. It allows for that curiosity. I think awareness of what’s going on around you is really important too. Again, that can be physical spaces or virtual spaces, but when thinking about wanting to ensure that people feel included, that people feel welcomed into conversation, that people feel like they’re identifying with other folks that they’re seeing in the community and having sort of an awareness of all the dynamics at play, sort of as though you were hosting a dinner party, I think is really necessary especially in digital community spaces, so that you aren’t just letting things take whatever shape other folks are defining.

26:58 – Write in an approachable way

If your writing feels to business-y, people won’t connect to it. A casual, conversational tone brings in a more engaged audience.

I think the types of formal writing that I’ve done in the past have all required a pretty approachable tone. I find the same thing to be valuable in storytelling and community spaces. We try to spotlight some of our members’ stories on Public. If I did that in language that was incredibly formal or felt very business-y, then it feels like a report in some way and not like a conversation. I think when telling a story, it’s important to think about who your audience is and what the goal of telling that story is. And that can apply if you’re just sitting around a dinner table too, of how do I want people to feel when they hear this story and that will change how you tell it. On Public and in our community space, I want people to feel as though they see themselves in the experience of that person or able to find things that they connect to. Talking about that person’s experience that they shared in a way that feels very human and feels very conversational, feels like it invites that type of connection and conversation.

37:39 – Create a safe community

It can be hard to create a safe online community, but it’s important that your members are able to be honest with one another, and they can only do that in a place where they feel safe.

I think it is incredibly important to maintain a sense of safety in community. I think what we’ve seen over the past couple of years is that’s really hard to do in digital spaces because people will troll or people feel like they can save really hateful things because they’re doing it anonymously. It can be really hard to maintain a sense of order or to enforce rules or guidelines or structure. I think that when you’re starting to build a community, it’s really important to be firm about what does and doesn’t happen in that space or how people do and don’t talk to each other. Because if you can set that foundation, it’s so much easier to grow with that rather than to try and come back in later and clean it up.

38:44 – Reframe your mindset

If you’re a moderator, you can’t be afraid to confront people’s behaviors. It’s your job to monitor that behavior so everyone feels welcome.

When I first started moderation, I think was the most uncomfortable thing for me because I was afraid to piss anyone off, or I was afraid to make anyone mad. But I think reframing it as you’re doing it for the greater health of your community can sort of remind you that it is really important because once you start to make exceptions, then the rules don’t matter. What we see on social media where people can just go off and say whatever they want to say, that doesn’t really serve anyone because then people feel alienated or they feel like they don’t want to share their opinion because they’re going to get attacked. And to me, that’s harmful. And I read someone describe this as and I’m forgetting the name of who wrote this. So I’m going to find the blog post after a call, but feeling empowered to say, “We don’t do that here.” Because people can say something offensive and that may fly somewhere else. But feeling empowered to say, “We don’t do that here.” Because you don’t actually have to justify that in the same way and say, “Well, I was just trying to be funny.” I understand, but we don’t do that here. And taking the time to continuously reset those expectations of this is what we do. This is what we don’t do here. The people who stick around will also then look out for that for you.

43:44 – Lead by example

People want to fit in to your community, but you may have to show them how to do that. Your example helps other people begin to interact.

I think leading by example is a really powerful way to create foundations as a community builder. People want to fit in. For the most part, people want to fit in. That’s how we interact as humans in group spaces. When we launch new social features or when I was engaging with the community, I was asking questions and posting things and replying to people in the way that I hoped they would interact with each other too. I don’t mean as carbon copies of one another, but in a tone that was curious in a tone that was respectful in a tone that leaned on facts and news articles and things that were credible. The pattern that I saw was people would imitate in a way the interactions that I was starting. As they got more comfortable with that, then they would put their own spin on it and make it their own and style things in a different way or whatever it may be. But in the early days, you have the opportunity to lead by example and to show people how you want to show up in this space, in a way that they can imitate. Again, not imitate word for word or action for action, but that they can see the common threads in that. And then as they gain more confidence and show up more actively in the space, they’re doing it in a way that you feel good about. That, I think continues to snowball in a positive way over time.

46:04 – What does a community manager do?

A community manager is not a social media manager. They interact with people and get involved in conversations to build community.

I had actually heard the title community manager before, but it was really just another title for social media manager at the time. It wasn’t until I sort of read the fine print of, okay, this is a very people-facing type of role that is asking someone to be involved in conversations and is asking to create intentional events and things that really focused on those sort of soft skills that I really pride myself in and are the pieces of my personality that I enjoy the most. It’s like, “I could do this for work?” That’s sort of cool. I feel like when you talk to people who are in the community profession, they have sort of a winding story like that of, “I was a camp counselor. I worked in the service industry and I really enjoyed interactions with people,” or whatever it may be and then sort of found themselves here. I think I had a little bit of a soft introduction to it. When I was at Lola, we would host events where we would bring customers into our office and we would have what we called first period Fridays and we would tell stories and share experiences. I think that was the first time I had seen sort of brand community building happen. I looked forward to those all month long. And so thinking about the idea of doing that type of work on a daily basis became very exciting to me. But it was certainly a this is something I enjoy, this is something I’m curious about and then seeing opportunities to do more of that and just sort of following that line.

49:50 – Be clear about your responsibilities

You may receive a lot of requests that aren’t part of your job. Make sure to define what your responsibilities are—and what they aren’t—so you don’t end up doing other people’s jobs.

One other thing that I think is really important when you’re working in community and maybe building a team or sort of growing in seniority in your position is being really clear about defining what you do and don’t do, especially because folks in community often know the customer very well. It can be very easy to be getting a lot of requests from a lot of different directions. One thing that we did recently was with our editorial team, sort of under this member advancement umbrella, defining the differences between what we do and what marketing does and both of those teams are very valuable, but they do very different things and sort of clarifying it for people as in, “If you’re looking for this, go to marketing. If you’re looking for this, go to community and editorial.” And so defining the purpose of the work that you’re doing in your community and the work that does and doesn’t go into that and knowing when to say no, allows you to continue to build your community with focus and with intention.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (00:06):

There’s celebration that happens in community that doesn’t often happen when you’re by yourself. Now, when you do your hundredth yoga class or something, and you get a shout out. Even though you may be in your living room, even if you can’t necessarily see other people working out around you, you feel like someone saw you and you feel like someone recognized you and you feel like you are a part of something in a way that is much harder to just be checking boxes or counting on your own.

And then saying, “Today, I did my hundredth yoga class.” Sort of looking blindly around. So I think that celebration aspect is motivating and continues to push us further in a really positive way.

Ben Grynol (00:52):

I’m Ben Grynol, part of the Early Startup team here at Levels. We’re building tech that helps people to understand their metabolic health. And this is your front row seat to everything we do. This is a whole new level.

Community has been an important part of Levels. A community can be more than one person, it can be many people and there are all these different things that make up and define community. And so for us, we’ve got all these micro communities. We’ve got some people that have accountability groups. For others, it’s participating in the private Facebook group. If you’re not part of it, you should join. But when it comes to community, we’re always connecting with different people who lead community across different companies. And so one of those people that we connect with regularly is Willa Tellekson-Flash.

Willa leads community at Public and Public is a community-led investing platform. It’s where different people can get insight into the way that others are investing in different stocks. Willa sat down with Cissy Hu, who leads community at Levels. And the two of them discussed these philosophies around engaging people at different stages in a journey, different parts and ways in which people can be part of communities and finding ways to bring people into the fold, given their different interests. It’s always fun talking with Willa. Here’s where they kick things off.

Cissy Hu (02:29):

Thanks for joining me today, Willa. I’m excited for our conversation on all things taboo topics, storytelling and community building.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (02:37):

Thanks for having me.

Cissy Hu (02:38):

Why don’t we kick things off by unpacking your personal mission? You mentioned your north star is using the power of conversation to normalize taboo topics that impact our daily lives.

Looking back on your career, this first manifested in your customer experience role at Lola, with period and sexual wellness products. And now as your role as the Director of Community at Public.com, centered on the topic of money and investing. Can you tell me more about the genesis of making uncomfortable conversations more palatable. What initially inspired you to get outside of your own comfort zone to champion these topics?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (03:16):

Yeah, I think a lot of it came from my own discomfort and acknowledging that and hating that I was uncomfortable talking about these things that were such a big part of my life and my friends’ lives.

I wrote my thesis in college on sex education in the US. I spent a year reading research on what we teach kids in the US about their bodies, about sex, about all of these things, which I could go down a rabbit hole on. It’s pretty wild. At the time I was doing my research, there are more than a dozen states that don’t require teachers to share medically accurate information.

But anyway, I was deep in this topic and then from college, went and worked at a company that sold period care products and sexual health products. I was still uncomfortable saying to the person I was dating at the time, “I have my period.” Or I was still uncomfortable talking about my body in relation to my reproductive health or sex or any of these things with people that I really trusted. After, I had written a full sex ed curriculum as part of my senior thesis.

That to me made me just uncomfortable in general, felt like this is something that matters to me. These are topics that I believe we should have more information on, that we should talk more openly about and that’s not going to happen unless I can feel comfortable starting some of those conversations. I think it took realizing that I was part of the thing that I disliked so much and then desiring to change that.

Cissy Hu (05:04):

Interesting. What advice do you have for people who are trying to broach controversial topics? Especially with Public, it is the importance of getting invested. With Levels, it’s becoming metabolically healthy. How did you maybe in your role as in customer experience, you found it to be a little bit easier because it was something that you were helping other people with. But do you have any advice for people trying to get started with having these controversial conversations?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (05:32):

Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to being comfortable sharing first. I found that particularly true at Public and in conversations about money with friends. If you’re willing to be the first person to say, “This is how much credit card debt I have.” Or, “These are how much I have in student loans.” Or, “This is how much I make in a year.”

It makes it clear to other people that you’re comfortable being part of the conversation and that you’re not ashamed to talk about those things. And so they shouldn’t have to be either. But I think the second piece of that is asking questions is really helpful. It’s so much easier to participate in a conversation when you’ve been actively welcomed into the conversation versus just waiting for someone to feel comfortable jumping in.

I will asterisk that by saying, if it’s a topic that is sensitive, it may help to say, “Are you comfortable if I ask you how much money you make? Are you comfortable if I ask you if you have a 401(k) or something like that.” And then assuming that it is okay with the other person to follow that with specific questions, but opening the door for people, I think makes it easier for them to walk in and participate with you.

Cissy Hu (06:51):

That makes a ton of sense. How has this evolved as you’ve jumped into community building at Public, asking people questions about if they have a 401(k), how much money do they make, how much they’re comfortable with investing, how has that evolved with time as you’ve spent growing the community at Public when early on, I’m assuming it was much more intimate conversations when you have a much more smaller community base. Now today, Public is hundreds of thousands of members. Has that intimacy level of asking these questions that people might be uncomfortable answering, has that shaken out differently as the community’s grown?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (07:31):

I think the biggest difference that I’ve seen is that a lot of effort was required early on to establish a norm where these topics were talked about more openly. Now, I’ll go back to that early piece in a second, but now when someone joins our community, they’re seeing all of these conversations happening. And so they understand that these are just the normal conversations that happen on Public. It’s normal to talk about what you’re investing in. It’s normal to talk about sort of what you’re prioritizing as an investor.

We have over 3 million members as of this year. That, as you said, it’s not possible to have those one-on-one conversations every single time anymore. Having that established norm has been really helpful, but I think at the beginning we had these social features tied to this investing app, but other than Venmo maybe, we weren’t used to talking about money in social media spaces.

There was no organic understanding of how to show up in that space. Having the one-to-one conversations, and also leading by example of saying like, “I’m going to talk about this.” Or, “Here’s something I didn’t know a lot about. Here’s what I learned,” welcome people into the conversation at that smaller scale and then set a foundation where it was able to grow organically from there. Essentially, doing that one to one or smaller scale manual work at the beginning to set the tone of what types of conversations we have on Public and how people talk to each other with respect, with curiosity. Then when new folks are entering in, they’re seeing that as the norm, they want to fit into that, they’re mimicking those behaviors and it maintains that culture as it evolves.

Cissy Hu (09:28):

Yeah. I think when Public first came to market, Venmo was probably one of the only places where you’d see like, “This person’s paying their roommate for groceries. This person’s paying rent.” And that is a big departure from a conversation you might be having about what are your investing priorities? Why are you investing? Are you investing for your future, for you and your partner’s future, for your children’s future.

Those were a lot more intense conversations than, “I saw that you bought groceries and you’re paying your roommate back.” That makes a ton of sense. You’re essentially creating a new space for people to have conversations that even folks don’t have, what some of their closest friends about what they’re investing priorities are and how they’re putting their money to work.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (10:11):

Yeah, yeah. Even just saying, “I invest,” it feels easier to do when you know that other people are doing it around you and it makes it easier to not only have conversations on the platform, but to then bring it up to your friends at dinner or whatever it may be because you know that you’re not the only one.

Cissy Hu (10:31):

Yeah. Some of the critical aspects of Public and Levels is this idea of behavior change. Our perception of money and food and our identity synced with what we believe. From a very early age in life, oftentimes we create these beliefs about money and food. Part of our role as community builders is helping our members redefine their relationship with things like investing and eating.

Speaking from personal experience, when I was an early investor new to investing in general, I was much more risk-adverse. I had no idea how to get started, didn’t really know how much risk exposure I wanted in my portfolio. Did I want to put everything into mutual funds or did I want to allocate to single stock? Those were conversations that were like internal conversations I was having with myself and it took me a while to identify with the role of being an investor. I’m curious, what’s the role that your team plays in helping people evolve their identity with investing?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (11:37):

Yeah, so our mission at Public is to help people be better investors. And so that makes it pretty easy to say to ourselves as a team, we have a role to play in doing that. This isn’t just engagement for engagement’s sake. We don’t just want the vanity metrics of X number of people open the app and spend time here. The value that we want to be providing people is that through spending time on Public, through participating in conversations in the community, people are gaining financial literacy and confidence in themselves as investors.

We recently sort of more formally defined our workflow and partnered more closely with the editorial team who produces different types of content that hone in on things happening in the markets, in different Publicly traded companies, sort of in the world in general under this umbrella of member advancement.

Our goals are really helping our members to advance as investors. I think that that allows us to have a clearer focus of what we’re prioritizing. And so when we are asking questions and engaging with community members, it’s not just going to be, “What did you invest in today and why?” There’s certainly a place for that, but we’re spending more time thinking about providing context for what’s happening in the markets.

There’s a lot happening in the markets right now. Or, we’re spending time breaking down a stock split that’s happening with a certain company and identifying areas that our members are curious about or confused about or want to better understand, whether that be a new type of investment like crypto or whether that be volatility in the markets and actively working to not give investment advice, but to help bring contexted information about those topics into our community so that folks feel like they’re engaging with the things that are helping them build a clearer picture of what it means to be an investor in June of 2022.

Cissy Hu (14:08):

How do you think about… So from the perspective of member advancement, how do you think about leaning on the other members in your community to help facilitate some of that member advancement?

When I think about a community, many folks might call their community base or their member base a community. But really, if it’s a one to one connection, when you are Public talking to a member that is really like the member base connection. When it’s member to member, that’s really where the magic of community comes into play. I’m curious, how do you lean into the other members of the community to help facilitate some of this member advancement, if there’s somebody who is further along in their investing journey, who can help step in and explain the stock split to a member who’s earlier on, in their investing journey.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (14:57):

Yeah, I think for our members who are extra engaged, our power users or MVP community members or whatever you want to call them, we have a pretty good sense of who they are and what they’re interested in and what their subject matter expertise is. If there’s someone who’s newer to our community and really interested in investing in sustainable companies and we know that this person over here is deep in renewable energy and things like that, then we can connect those folks and allow those sub-community sort of topic-specific conversations to happen.

Another thing though is including our members’ perspectives and expertise in the conversations that are happening in the community. A recent example, being with all the volatility in the markets right now, we asked some of our trusted community members, some of the experts in our network to share their perspective on how they’re approaching this type of volatility and then re-shared that in our community and in a more structured and formalized way.

But included voices of our community members in that. And so people see themselves in it, they want to reply to it, they want to continue to be part of that conversation. But I think for members that have an understanding of what’s normally talked about in our community, we’ll see people proactively post about things that are happening in the world. We’ll put together informational content about a recent Amazon stock split, because we want to make sure that our members are informed. But we’ll also see that there are bunch of other people who are talking about the same thing or seeing someone ask a question about why did the price of my shares change and hopping in and responding and sharing resources and things like that.

As you said, the many to many interaction is what’s at the core of community. I think on our team side, we want to think about making sure we’re providing the context and information that we think will be helpful to our members as they continue to sort of crystallize their understanding of how investing works, but also support and celebrate our members who are going above and beyond to show up for one another and answer questions and just be there in conversation so that they feel like they’re still getting value out of that.

Cissy Hu (17:44):

Pulling on that thread of celebrating members who are most engaged, you joined Public at a time when the community was relatively nascent and over time, it’s grown. In the early days of community building. How did you think about empowering the folks, the community leaders on Public who are really values-aligned with the organization and represented the type of investor that you were building the community for? How did you think about ensuring that you were getting ideas from them to implement in the community and making sure that their voice was heard early on in the community?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (18:19):

I think in the early days, I was spending most of my time just interacting with people in the community. And so doing exactly what you just said of asking questions and making sure that I wasn’t just asking questions in like a post in a community and letting people answer and then leaving that be. But trying to ensure that I was actively listening when asking a question. When rolling out new features, sending a DM to the members who I knew were most interested in seeing that feature be rolled out and saying, “Hey I know you had been asking about X and we just rolled this feature out today. We would love to hear what you think about it.”

I think that following up step is really important in making sure that people feel heard. But another way I think to show that you value folks’ participation is to follow up on things that you know about them in conversations too.

Going back to a similar example that I mentioned earlier, if I knew that you were really interested in athletics and companies like Nike and Lululemon and whatever it may be, then if there’s a Lululemon earnings report or something like that, reaching back out to you or tagging you in a post about something and saying, “Hey, I know you were interested in this company and the earnings report came out today. What do you think?” Being particular about who you’re looping people in and when and why and people feel that. They understand that was intentional. I think that makes people feel like they are known within a community, which encourages them to spend time there.

Cissy Hu (20:06):

Follow up is key. I think some of the most meaningful community experiences I’ve had are people who can close the loop or they can align different community members with varying interests and create a space where people with different interests, same interests can all come together in a way that you, as a individual member might not realize that you have overlapping interests in this space. What are some other characteristics that you’ve observed in impactful and strong community builders?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (20:38):

I think curiosity is a big one. Asking thoughtful questions and wanting to ask more questions based on what people say. I really don’t like small talk. I think it just feels like sort of a waste of time. There’s so many more interesting things about us than what we do and where we live. Being curious enough to ask people questions about things that you’ve heard them mention or seems like they are interested in. I think, again goes back to what we were just talking about of showing by action that you value someone in that space, whether it be physical or virtual.

Actively listening I think is another really important piece of building community, because it allows for that follow up. It allows for that curiosity. I think awareness of what’s going on around you is really important too. Again, that can be physical spaces or virtual spaces, but when thinking about wanting to ensure that people feel included, that people feel welcomed into conversation, that people feel like they’re identifying with other folks that they’re seeing in the community and having sort of an awareness of all the dynamics at play, sort of as though you were hosting a dinner party, I think is really necessary especially in digital community spaces, so that you aren’t just letting things take whatever shape other folks are defining.

Cissy Hu (22:20):

Yeah. I think to your point about minimizing small talk, especially around these big topics that we oftentimes feel uncomfortable around, it’s easy to lean into the, “How do you feel about the weather these days?”

One story I’ll share is early on in my career, at my first company, there was… I worked in finance and worked with a portfolio manager who was very much kind of somebody who normalized asking the weird questions. I got into the elevator one day, ran into him and he was like, “How are you doing?” And I mentioned something about the weather and he looks at me and goes, “You never have to talk about the weather with me.” It kind of caught me off guard because that’s kind of what you do in the elevator on the way down heading out of the office.

And it was such a reminder to me that even in professional spaces, that we’re all human, people want to have interesting conversation. If I can have a 30 second conversation about what’s the place you’d love to live more than anything. What does that look like for you or what’s your dream vacation look like? That’s way more interesting of a conversation than, “It’s really hot today.” And we go both go on our days and that’s it. I haven’t really built any meaningful connection in that conversation. I could have that conversation with any person on the street.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (23:49):

I joke that it’s big talk only. No small talk, big talk only.

Cissy Hu (23:54):

I love that. What are your tactics for breaking through the small talk when you’re meeting somebody new for the first time or you find yourself in a situation where it is a small talk facilitated space. I’m thinking like a networking event where you’re going and it’s a lot of people who kind of talking about the weather and things that don’t really matter in life.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (24:20):

You just gave an example of a question that sort of breaks out of that. “What would you do if money didn’t matter and where would you live if you could move anywhere tomorrow?” I think as silly as some of those questions can fee, having the confidence to just throw one out there sometimes can have such valuable results.

I think there are some that may feel like a less drastic change from a networking type of conversation. In those spaces asking questions like, “What was the highlight of your week so far?” Or, “What’s something that you’re looking forward to in the next several days?” Or, “What’s something that made you smile today?” That don’t feel as like, “What’s your favorite book?” In completely changing the subject, but break people out of more logistical types of questions.

And then there are usually things that come out of how someone answers that you can follow up on that feel more natural, that feel like a normal flow of conversation. I think it can feel a little bit jarring sometimes to throw out a completely different question. But if there’s a pause in conversation and you take the effort or make the initiative, I’ve found that people are always grateful that you did. Maybe having like two to three questions in your back pocket to throw out there in situations that you know might be small talk heavy, and then you don’t feel like you’re racking your brain.

Cissy Hu (25:52):

Yeah. One of my favorite questions that I know Tim Ferris used to ask on his podcast and I think was just a question he used to ask people in general was, “What’s one of your favorite books that you like to gift?”

I think that really speaks to the type of person you are in terms of these are the values and the stories that I want to share with people. You can learn so much about people from little actions like a book that you gift often.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (26:20):

Yeah. And you get a book recommendation out of it.

Cissy Hu (26:23):

Yeah. That’s a good point. Add to your Goodreads. I’m curious from your perspective. So I saw that you spend your spare time writing and contributing to wellness and travel publications as a freelancer. When you think about one of the key pillars of community building, it’s the ability to tell stories. Helping people find common ground and shared values. I’m curious if your writing style has informed your approach to community building and how you story tell in your work on a day to day basis.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (26:57):

Yeah. I think the types of formal writing that I’ve done in the past have all required a pretty approachable tone. I find the same thing to be valuable in storytelling and community spaces. We try to spotlight some of our members’ stories on Public.

If I did that in language that was incredibly formal or felt very businessy, then it feels like a report in some way and not like a conversation. I think when telling a story, it’s important to think about who your audience is and what the goal of telling that story is. And that can apply if you’re just sitting around a dinner table too, of how do I want people to feel when they hear this story and that will change how you tell it. On Public and in our community space, I want people to feel as though they see themselves in the experience of that person or able to find things that they connect to.

Talking about that person’s experience that they shared in a way that feels very human and feels very conversational, feels like it invites that type of connection and conversation. So I think, as you’re saying, like writing is storytelling, writing is communicating and all of those things allow us to connect with one another. Having that in the back of your mind when storytelling, or when communicating within a community of the goal of this is to create a foundation for connection. What type of language do I want to use as a result?

Cissy Hu (28:51):

For people who want to connect with more folks, whether they’re a new member of a community, or are a part of a community and want to get more involved, what tips do you have for becoming a more ingrained part of a community that’s aligned with their values?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (29:09):

Yeah, I think it can be intimidating at first to post something in a community space, whether that be a forum or something similar. I think it’s okay to take the time to just observe a little bit at first and get a sense for how people are interacting with each other and the types of questions that people are asking and the types of conversations that are being had.

I think it’s often more comfortable to comment on something or ask a question first and then you’re sort of building your way up to maybe feeling more confident, sharing your own perspective or sharing your own opinion.

But I think asking questions and getting to know the other people in the community allows you to sort of climb that ladder of confidence and of sense of surroundings. When people ask me that on Public, “How can I get more involved?” I’ll usually say like find people whose perspectives you find interesting or who are posting things or sharing things that you find interesting and follow them and connect with them and ask them questions. In doing so you’re slowly building out your own network within that community and then when you’re more comfortable participating, you have people who will also engage in conversation with you. And so then it feels like a more supportive, more personal and therefore less intimidating space.

Cissy Hu (30:38):

Yeah, it’s not too dissimilar than going to a party. When you walk into a party, there might be a number of people you don’t know that you might take the time to observe what’s the dynamic of the party? What are the different rooms? Is there a room where there’s karaoke happening, which maybe that’s something you gravitate towards or there’s maybe the snack room, which you gravitate towards and try to understand what’s the dynamic and how you want to be a part of that. I feel like in some sense, community building is quite similar in navigating that dynamic.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (31:12):

I’ll often relate community builders to dinner party hosts. I think as someone who’s in that space, rely on your host in the same way you would, if you were at an actual party and talk to the people running the community, let them know the things that you’re interested in and they can maybe make that first introduction for you so that you don’t have to go up to someone and say, “Hi, I’m Willa. I don’t know anyone here. Can I talk to you?”

Which I have done before. It is intimidating. It usually works. But if someone can make that introduction for you of, “Hey, this person is really interested in the Boston Red Sox too. I thought you two might be interested in getting to know each other.” Leaning on those people to make those connections in the same way that if you were at someone’s house, you would rely on them to let you know where the bathroom was or let you know where you could fill up your water glass. You don’t always need to do it on your own.

Cissy Hu (32:16):

Yeah. It’s and it’s a good reminder for people who are hosting or are viewed as community leaders. You would do have a responsibility in helping people feel more comfortable and that actually strengthens the ties that members feel to one another. Really simple things like introducing people to one another or connecting people whether it be in a virtual or physical space, makes a big difference in how somebody perceives the openness and how welcome a community is. Can you share an example of a community that you’ve really enjoyed getting more involved with?

It doesn’t necessarily need to be a product community. It could be a community that you’ve gotten to know perhaps in New York City, in your neighborhood. Any examples that come to mind?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (33:08):

Yeah. I’ve been getting a lot of joy recently from going to track workouts on Tuesday mornings with an Adidas running community. There is something really wonderful about showing up and recognizing people who are like, “Hey, glad you’re here.” I’ve been running for a while.

It’s not that I can’t do it on my own, but I push myself more when doing it in community and feel inspired by people who are faster than I am. That’s one, I think that has felt like it’s been energizing to me recently.

Cissy Hu (33:48):

What do you think it is about being with the folks in this space, on the track, on Tuesdays that really energizes you to get up and go every week?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (34:03):

I think there’s a piece of it that I know I will feel satisfied when I finish this workout. But also, being inspired by watching other people push themselves, makes it so much easier for me to push myself. I think in this specific example, it’s so much easier for me to go on a 30 minute run by myself and just put in headphones, listen to music and cruise a little bit.

But when I’m being asked to run really fast or get completely breathless, it’s so much easier to want to stop. But if you’re chasing someone or if you’re seeing other people do it too, you’re all sort of competing with yourselves because you’re seeing other people do it around you. And so you push yourself to do more than you thought you could. And then you feel really empowered because you saw that you did it. I feel like there’s different versions of that in so many different communities of you see other people doing things, so you feel more motivated to do it and then having done it, you feel empowered by having done whatever the action was.

Cissy Hu (35:12):

Yeah. It’s that accountability piece of showing up to the same people every week, having a goal that you set you want to break week over week. I think interestingly enough, a lot of health and wellness in particular, a lot of things around studio workouts, those are the things that inspire us. Even the Peloton, where you’re showing up with the same coach every week and you’re seeing friends who are working out pretty consistently, I think a lot of the consistency that comes with working out with investing with eating is actually a big key and why it’s so important for people to feel like they’re a part of something greater than just making these changes on their own.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (35:55):

Yeah. There’s celebration that happens in community that doesn’t often happen when you’re by yourself. The Peloton example you gave is a good one there too I think of, even if you can’t necessarily see other people working out around you, I don’t have a Peloton, but I do their app workouts sometimes.

When you do your 100th yoga class or something and you get a shout out, even though you may be in your living room, you feel like someone saw you and you feel like someone recognized you and you feel like you were a part of something in a way that is much harder to just be checking boxes or counting on your own and then saying, “Today, I did my a 100th yoga class,” sort of looking blindly around. So I think that celebration aspect is motivating and continues to push us further in a really positive way.

Cissy Hu (36:47):

Yeah. It makes some of the anti-climatic moments in life a lot more exciting when you’re dealing with other people. On the flip side, there was a huge proliferation in online communities over the last two years. And I’m curious, are there any things that you’ve seen as a community builder that you’ve observed in terms of things that haven’t worked for online communities emerging from the ground up. What are the things that you think as you sit in your seat, we either tested this and this didn’t work, or these are the things I would try and stay away from, as you think about building a vulnerable and authentic community online, which is a particularly hard space to build when you think about traditional communities that were in person in physical spaces.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (37:38):

I think it is incredibly important to maintain a sense of safety in community. I think what we’ve seen over the past couple of years is that’s really hard to do in digital spaces because people will troll or people feel like they can save really hateful things because they’re doing it anonymously.

It can be really hard to maintain a sense of order or to enforce rules or guidelines or structure. I think that when you’re starting to build a community, it’s really important to be firm about what does and doesn’t happen in that space or how people do and don’t talk to each other.

Because if you can set that foundation, it’s so much easier to grow with that rather than to try and come back in later and clean it up. When I first started moderation, I think was the most uncomfortable thing for me because I was afraid to piss anyone off, or I was afraid to make anyone mad. But I think reframing it as you’re doing it for the greater health of your community can sort of remind you that it is really important because once you start to make exceptions, then the rules don’t matter.

What we see on social media where people can just go off and say whatever they want to say, that doesn’t really serve anyone because then people feel alienated or they feel like they don’t want to share their opinion because they’re going to get attacked. And to me, that’s harmful. And I read someone describe this as and I’m forgetting the name of who wrote this. So I’m going to find the blog post after a call, but feeling empowered to say, “We don’t do that here.” Because people can say something offensive and that may fly somewhere else.

But feeling empowered to say, “We don’t do that here.” Because you don’t actually have to justify that in the same way and say, “Well, I was just trying to be funny.” I understand, but we don’t do that here. And taking the time to continuously reset those expectations of this is what we do.

This is what we don’t do here. The people who stick around will also then look out for that for you and moderation has scaled on Public because all of our members will report something, if they see something that violates our community guidelines. I think moderation is really important. I don’t think that it should fall fully on the community team. I think that there should be moderation and trust and safety teams, as we see at some of these bigger platforms. But I think we saw the growth of social media without those safety measures in place. Now, we’re seeing how important it is to get those foundations of safety in place before you start to scale because it is so much harder to go back and clean it up afterwards, as we’re seeing on all the big social media platforms right now.

Cissy Hu (41:08):

Yeah. To your point about members flagging instances, when they know this isn’t something we do here, we don’t do that here, it makes it a lot more easy to scale because you have members who feel empowered to keep the space sacred and safe for other members. I think the more you can empower the folks that you’re building for, the more that they’ll provide moderation and help for the community.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (41:40):

Yeah. We saw an example of that that was really, really powerful. In late January, early February of last year, when everything was happening with meme stocks. And there was a flood of new members on Public who were more from the Reddit, subreddit type of community and so came in and were communicating with each other in a way that was pretty different than the norms and expectations that we had set.

But there was so much happening all at once. At the time, our community team was me and one other person on my team who had just started like a month before. We couldn’t be in all places at once. I started seeing conversation surface where some of our most engaged members had said like, “Hey, we actually don’t talk to each other that way.” Or, “This community is for X.” They were sort of in the trenches with us in a way that allowed us to have that sort of buffer zone of in this flood of new members, because we have these people alongside us, we’re able to address behaviors that don’t fly with how we want our community to be.

Cissy Hu (43:10):

Tell me a bit about how you set the tone and establish values for community as it was still taking shape. I think when the meme stock era was happening, that was a couple of years into Public’s community building efforts. And so by then you had some norms in place. And so you could lean on members to help with moderation in the earlier days. How did you think about establishing values that you wanted to ultimately play out when something like the meme stocks were happening?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (43:43):

I think leading by example is a really powerful way to create foundations as a community builder. People want to fit in. For the most part, people want to fit in. That’s how we interact as humans in group spaces. When we launch new social features or when I was engaging with the community, I was asking questions and posting things and replying to people in the way that I hoped they would interact with each other too. I don’t mean as carbon copies of one another, but in a tone that was curious in a tone that was respectful in a tone that leaned on facts and news articles and things that were credible.

The pattern that I saw was people would imitate in a way the interactions that I was starting. As they got more comfortable with that, then they would put their own spin on it and make it their own and style things in a different way or whatever it may be. But in the early days, you have the opportunity to lead by example and to show people how you want to show up in this space, in a way that they can imitate. Again, not imitate word for word or action for action, but that they can see the common threads in that. And then as they gain more confidence and show up more actively in the space, they’re doing it in a way that you feel good about. That, I think continues to snowball in a positive way over time.

Cissy Hu (45:33):

Talking on that thread a bit about leading by example, how did you initially become interested in community building broadly? Was it a profession that you had aspired to break into when you were in high school? Or is it something that was completely new to you that you took a chance on?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (45:51):

I definitely didn’t know that community was a word in a title, until I saw a job posting that I thought was interesting or I had actually heard the title community manager before, but it was really just another title for social media manager at the time. It wasn’t until I sort of read the fine print of, okay, this is a very people-facing type of role that is asking someone to be involved in conversations and is asking to create intentional events and things that really focused on those sort of soft skills that I really pride myself in and are the pieces of my personality that I enjoy the most.

It’s like, “I could do this for work?” That’s sort of cool. I feel like when you talk to people who are in the community profession, they have sort of a winding story like that of, “I was a camp counselor. I worked in the service industry and I really enjoyed interactions with people,” or whatever it may be and then sort of found themselves here. I think I had a little bit of a soft introduction to it.

When I was at Lola, we would host events where we would bring customers into our office and we would have what we called first period Fridays and we would tell stories and share experiences. I think that was the first time I had seen sort of brand community building happen. I looked forward to those all month long. And so thinking about the idea of doing that type of work on a daily basis became very exciting to me. But it was certainly a this is something I enjoy, this is something I’m curious about and then seeing opportunities to do more of that and just sort of following that line.

Cissy Hu (47:48):

You made a point that when you initially came across the role of community manager, you felt like it had been conflated with social media manager. I think in 2022, there are a ton of community manager roles that actually don’t sit as closely to the social team as you might have expected back in the 2010s.

Can you talk a bit about your role and perhaps how you’ve redefined the community manager role and how you’ve seen others redefine what it might mean? So that there’s more of a distinction between a community manager who’s managing social versus a community manager who’s really thinking about the strategic vision of the people that are in the community and bringing them along for the ride.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (48:30):

Yeah. I think one thing that you touched on earlier that has been really helpful in articulating the difference between some of these focuses is the difference between community and audience, community being many to many interactions versus audience being one to many interactions. Ann example of an audience being a brand’s social account or someone’s newsletter and that’s not to say that you can’t build community around those things, but in and of themselves, those things aren’t community.

They can be tools to build community, but it would have to go further than that. Whereas community builders are really focused on fostering those many to many interactions and connections and the value that comes from them. One of the things that I was excited about about community at Public was that because our community lives on our platform, my role has never touched external social media.

I’ve never been responsible for our Twitter or our Instagram. It’s not my skillset. I was excited to be able to focus more fully on the person-to-person interactions. I think to sort of tie that back to your question, one other thing that I think is really important when you’re working in community and maybe building a team or sort of growing in seniority in your position is being really clear about defining what you do and don’t do, especially because folks in community often know the customer very well.

It can be very easy to be getting a lot of requests from a lot of different directions. One thing that we did recently was with our editorial team, sort of under this member advancement umbrella, defining the differences between what we do and what marketing does and both of those teams are very valuable, but they do very different things and sort of clarifying it for people as in, “If you’re looking for this, go to marketing. If you’re looking for this, go to community and editorial.”

And so defining the purpose of the work that you’re doing in your community and the work that does and doesn’t go into that and knowing when to say no, allows you to continue to build your community with focus and with intention,

Cissy Hu (50:59):

For people who are aspiring community builders, what recommendations you have for them in terms of getting started and exploring whether or not being a community builder is for them. I think a lot of things that we do in our day to day is things that we likely do in our own lives. So I’m curious if you have any, any pointers for people who want to break into community managing.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (51:26):

I think there are so many interest communities that exist in the worlds that we live in outside of work. We touched on this a little bit, but whether that be a book club or a running club or a dinner party series or a spiritual community or any of these things, getting involved in communities in your own world, whether that be in person or whether that be getting more involved in digital communities too, but participating more there and focusing on being more of a leader within that space, some communities have ambassadors, some just like, “You know there’s that person at that run club that you go to who is always really welcoming to people.”

But honing those soft skills and building your confidence on being the one to ask questions and talk to strangers and doing all of those things makes you a more confident community builder as you’re walking into an interview or looking for ways to do that professionally.

I also think that a lot of the times communities are looking for people who are passionate about what they’re doing or care about that specific focus area. And so if you spend more time in the communities that you find interesting, you may also find connections to or opportunities to get more involved professionally. But honing the soft skills first, I think sets you up for success.

Cissy Hu (53:03):

Totally agreed. For you with investing, have you seen any circling back to the concept of behavior change? Have you seen any behavior changes within yourself, given your role as a community lead and focused on investing day in, day out. Any big investing changes that you’ve seen in how you manage your money and think about investing?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (53:28):

I didn’t really invest before I took this job. I knew that I should and I think one investing account that was more mutual funds, et cetera, like you were talking about. I wasn’t making a lot of active decisions. I was just sort of setting that direct deposit every month because I knew that that was probably good for, for me in the long run and was curious about investing, but had found it really unapproachable.

When I first heard about Public, I felt like I’m part of the target audience here. I want to get involved with this, but don’t know how because I haven’t seen myself in this space. I haven’t identified as an investor. By having conversations, thousands of conversations at this point with our members and learning about the companies that they’re interested in and trying to define strategies and terms for people in human language, I’ve learned so much about investing that I didn’t know about before.

I’m a much more active investor than I was in the beginning of 2020 when I first joined Public. So it certainly fed that curiosity and allowed me to learn by osmosis in a different way and have also felt more comfortable talking about investing in finances in my personal life too, whether that be with friends or with family members. I had forgotten that I didn’t have that confidence or access to these types of conversations two and a half years ago.

Cissy Hu (55:12):

It’s been two and a half years since you’ve started having these conversations with members in the community. Are there any examples that you can share in terms of the evolution of behavior change and the confidence gained for some of the folks that you’ve built relationships with over the course these last two years?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (55:32):

Yeah. We certainly saw more of a bull market earlier on. We were seeing folks who had made investments that over time allowed them to put down a down payment on a home or pay off a student loan and that was really cool to see. But also just the confidence piece of college student who was the first person in her family to invest.

She was learning about investing in the Public community and then going back and talking to her family about what investing was and why it could be beneficial to them. She was able to see that ripple effect of, “Now, I know more about this, and now I can share that with people who I care about.” And that ripple effect was really exciting to see.

I think confidence is something that we don’t measure in the same way that we point to tangible like success stories, but that confidence can be so much more powerful than some of the things that we can put dollar signs or other super numerical metrics on because that’s something that we take with us every day and that’s something that allows us to going back to behavior change, to continue to make decisions in a certain way that we wouldn’t have been able to before.

Cissy Hu (57:02):

Yeah. I think that compounding factor of being able to be comfortable in one aspect of your life and having that water fall into another aspect of your life, whether it be money into health or money into your work. I think a lot of behavior change over time compounds one habit over another and day by day, that’s how you’re making improvements every day.

Willa Tellekson-Flash (57:24):

Yeah, absolutely.

Cissy Hu (57:26):

Well, thank you for joining us today. Where can people find you?

Willa Tellekson-Flash (57:30):

You can find Public at Public.com just as it sounds. I am on Public at Willa TF. So if you are on Public, you can find me there and you can find me on Twitter @WillaCTF or on LinkedIn, Willa Tellekson-Flash.