#121 – Why we chose a membership model: Questions from our Levels community (Maziar Brumand & Chris Jones)

Is membership the same thing as a subscription? According to the team at Levels, it’s much, much more. Memberships are an opportunity for collaboration, and they’re meant to give the individual as much value as possible. In this episode, Levels Head of Business Maziar Brumand and Head of Member Experience Chris Jones answer questions from our community about why we chose a membership model and why we feel this model is important for the future of our members.

02:51 – The values of membership

Maz said that Levels holds to two values in regard to customer membership: build value and create trust.

When we thought about membership, we really wanted to create two pillars that we stay true to as we develop Levels. One is continues to create value. And hopefully that value for people will be more than what they put in. That value is different for different people. So some people may find a lot of value in the beginning and some people may not, and that’s okay. As we get better, hopefully we bring in more people in the fold and the value we create for them based on their specific needs will be more than what they pay, but that’s okay. That’s just, I think, the nature of a startup and the product becoming more mature and value increasing. And the second thing is trust. Every decision we make within the company, as you know, whether around support or business or clinical, or any of the things we do, should be designed to increase trust. So, the question that obviously we all ask ourselves internally is, “This thing that we’re about to do or roll out, does it actually increase or decrease trust?” So really those two principles: create value, build trust.

11:06 – Strategize your food intake

Maz said his big revelation with Levels was understanding how the timing of eating certain foods matters for metabolic health.

I remember when I first was beta testing Levels, before I joined, my aha moment came less around the food I was eating, but the timing of that food. So it’d be in the afternoon, I’d have a Greek yogurt. And if I had the Greek yogurt and then went for a run, I was golden. But if I had that Greek yogurt and then sat down to knock out some more emails for 45 minutes to an hour and then went for the run, I was now coming down off my spike and the run accelerated it. And I would go hypoglycemic. And it had been happening for me for months. And I was like, what is wrong with me? I take care of myself. I’m eating healthy. And it was the subtleness of the timing of it made all the difference in the world. That’s a whole other dimension we don’t talk about a ton in terms of when you eat the food, we talk about maybe having a salad before pasta. But the number of learnings that we start learning is more and more people get in the system. It makes the system smarter and the insights are going to get better over time. And that’s pretty exciting to me. Because I think there’s a lot you can get out today and we’ve only just begun.

12:52 – Use crowdsourcing to gain insight

Maz shared how Levels’ Facebook community comes together and crowdsources insight to help people find the best food for their needs.

On the Facebook community, which is super active, last week someone posted that they had a spike with Athletic Greens, which is a supplement a lot of us follow with at Levels. And in 12 hours it was 32 comments from that community of, “Hey, here’s my experience. Try this, try having it before a workout, after a meal, before a meal, add it with protein, drink it by itself, drink it cold and slow.” The number of recommendations that came from that community in short order from someone just saying, “Here’s a food that I think is healthy, but I personally had a spike, what are some things?” And that crowdsourcing insight was super powerful and a lot of things that I would never even have thought to try. So, that was really cool to see that community really being there to help that member out.

15:59 – Membership isn’t just transactional

Chris explained that membership with Levels is more than a transaction for service. It’s a long-term relationship that benefits both the members and the company.

Membership implies that it’s not a transactional relationship. It’s not a one month relationship. It’s not a one way relationship where we’re just providing something to you, and that’s it. You may think of Netflix as a membership. It’s a subscription model, but it’s not a membership. Because it’s mostly Netflix providing content to people. But we wanted something that has this back and forth and it’s over the long term, because I think it’s these type of things, insights that either members provide to members or members provide to us and then we can surface to members, is what makes this experience magical.

19:04 – A holistic approach to metabolic health

Chris said it’s important to think about membership holistically. You can get so much more out of an interactive relationship than a one-time test.

Thinking about the membership as a holistic approach for metabolic health is actually a good way to think about it. And the reason as you said, we provided labs, it wasn’t just because we wanted to do the lab product. It was because it’s very integral into this journey of improving underlying health. And it’s the idea that maybe you get a CGM, you figure out what spikes you through the content, through the community, through the CGM. And then you work on it based on things that you’ve learned. And so, you could take a baseline lab and say, “Hey, here are my lab values. Whether it’s around A1C, fats and glucose, lipids, which are basically cholesterol. And this is where I started… I learned a bunch of stuff through using a CGM in the community, and then I want to practice that. And maybe I get another CGM to see how I’m doing, maybe I don’t. It doesn’t matter, but you can then do another lab at six months or a year and say, “Look, I’ve understood what I need to do. I’ve practiced it.” Now taking the lab so I can compare and say, wow, look at these markers that show that my health is improving. And that’s an integral approach versus an ad hoc approach of saying, “I’m just going to go do a lab. You’re just going to go to CGM.”

26:07 – The inefficiency of healthcare

Maz said the current model of healthcare makes it hard to transfer your records anywhere, whereas with Levels all that information is in an app in your pocket at all times.

It is just a reminder of our current healthcare system. There’s so much inefficiency and so many areas for improvement, for a better experience, more convenient, easier to carry around in your pocket versus the, “Hey, I just moved and now I have to go get all my records from one provider and carry it my little pamphlet and take it of x-rays and read outs.” It makes it hard when people are mobile of like, if you’ve been seeing the same doctor your entire life, he or she may know that just because he’d been seeing you. But if you people move around a lot and that becomes much harder to go from system to system, versus like, all right, to what degree can I have information about me in my pocket all the time and see how I’m improving or not over time?

33:27 – The importance of information accessibility

Chris said the goal of Levels is to align the company’s interests with that of the customer, including making information more accessible for non-members.

I think we’ve cautiously made the decision to make our blog really rich and I’ll put it behind the paywalls, because the people that will benefit from that information benefit for free. I think also disambiguating between obviously the two costs of Levels. One is obviously the membership fee which we separated out, which currently it’s $200 a year. And then the other one is cost of other third party services CGMs, and labs, and nutritionists. And the reason we separated the two is, with Levels, you need to at least to start to use a CGM. We don’t make that CGM. And we don’t also want to be in a position where we make money on that CGM. So, this idea that we don’t want to be incentivized to sell you more stuff or less stuff because we don’t make money on the hardware or labs or any of that. And we wanted to align our interests with our members that we would only recommend these third party services while we think it will benefit your health. And we don’t benefit either way. And it’s really for us to make the right recommendation for the member.

38:36 – Give members value

Chris said the goal isn’t to create a service that people pay for but don’t use. The goal is to create a service that people find a lot of value in.

I think that was part of the philosophy of the membership. We don’t want to be a gym membership where we want to bring in a ton of people and the less they use it, the more money we make. And that’s not what we want. We actually want people to be engaged with Levels so that they can see the improvement in their underlying health and want to come back and use more Levels and be a member for years to come. So, by separating the buying stuff from us on an out of stock basis, CGM to maps and stuff from our profit making, we don’t make money or lose money by people using the stuff. So, we’re not a gym where the less you use us, the more money we make, or the more you use us like a car dealership or an oil change place, the more money you would make. So, we separated that incentive to say, the more you use us or the less you use us, the money doesn’t change. What we really want though, is people getting value out of the experience so that they come back year after year, and really contribute back so we can make things better. We’re provided to other community members. So, I think that’s definitely a pillar of when we were thinking about membership to make sure that we’ve created the right incentives to impact it.

43:48 – Health is a long-term journey

Maz said true metabolic health comes from making the right lifestyle choices continually, whether that’s about sleep, exercise, or what you eat.

I think, again, this is a long term journey. It’s not the, “Hey I’m going to sign up on January 1st and for a month and then I’m going to be magically healthy.” This is about continue lifestyle choices you make around the quality of the sleep, exercise, what you’re putting in your body. Food being medicine or poison, and that adds up. And sometimes it’s not always going to show up in a week or a month. It could be like, “Hey, I’m tracking this over my journey, because I want to live to be 150.” And technology is changing and what a big factor is, the food we use and it’s exciting the mission run, but it’s a big one

44:24 – Put the consumer at the center of health

Chris said the person that cares most about their health is the individual. And so it makes a lot of sense to put that person at the center of the health journey.

I think one of the things that excited me about the health space that really changed the trajectory of my career, this was at Apple was really putting the consumer at the center of their health. Because the person that cares most about their health is the person, usually. And so, it makes a lot of sense to put that person at the center and inform them and educate them and provide feedback in a way that will help them know what to do to improve their health. And what excited me about joining Levels for Apple was this idea that, A, we’re putting people at the center of their health and B, we’re providing personalized value feedback to people. It’s the hamburger I eat shows up with very short feedback loop to me to see how that affected my glucose. And that’s pretty magical. I think these bio wearables that should give you direct feedback of how that specific thing affected you personally and what it could mean for your health is the thing that excites me, that is a step change in how health has been done.

Chris Jones (00:00):

What we really want though, is people getting value out of the experience so that they come back year after year, and really contribute back so we can make things better, we’re providing to other community members. That’s definitely a pillar of when we were thinking about membership to make sure that we’ve created the right incentives to impact it.

Ben Grynol (00:26):

I’m Ben Grynol, part of the early startup team here at Levels. We’re building tech that helps people to understand their metabolic health. And this is your front row seat to everything we do. This is a whole new level.

Ben Grynol (00:58):

Recently, we moved to a membership model and we got a lot of questions around what is the Levels membership? What’s the value of it? What’s the outlook on it? So Chris Jones, head of member experience, and Maziar Brumand, head of business. The two of them sat down and they discussed this philosophy around what our membership is. They did an AMA with questions from the community to answer some of the most common things people are curious about. In addition to that, they discussed some of the philosophy, some of the value, some of the outlook in the way that we start to build out membership and the value we create with it. It was a great conversation. Here’s where they kick things off.

Maziar Brumand (01:42):

We spent a lot of time thinking about our membership and what does it really mean and why do people want to actually be a member of a group? And from the first principal’s thinking, and the thing that was really clear is people usually join a group as a member to meet a need, whether it’s physical, whether it’s emotional or intellectual. And we really thought about like, “What is it that Levels would bring to people?” And go down that route and understand that the value that we’re creating for people in those vectors, we really want it to be more than what they’re actually putting in, in terms of cost, or time, or friction or anything that basically users will incur when they join the group. So, we modeled the membership and we strive to model the membership in a way that the value that were created for people in those aspects is more what they put in.

Maziar Brumand (02:33):

And the second thing that was really important for us is, to really have a long-term relationship or a membership. Trust is a big component. Trust is really a tiered decision making rule, and what that means is you need to have that to believe what the people are doing, I know relationship is actually for the benefit, all of that relationship. And so, when we thought about membership, we really wanted to create two pillars that we stay true to as we develop Levels. One is, continues to create value. And hopefully that value for people will be more than what they put in. That value is different for different people. So some people may find a lot of value in the beginning and some people may not, and that’s okay. As we get better, hopefully we bring in more people in the folder and the value we create for them based on their specific needs will be more than what they pay, but that’s okay. That’s just, I think the nature of a startup and the product becoming more mature and value increasing.

Maziar Brumand (03:23):

And the second thing is trust. Every decision we make within the company, as you know, whether around support, or business. Or clinical, or any of the things we do, should be designed to increase trust. So, the question that obviously we all ask ourselves internally is, “This thing that we’re about to do or roll out, does it actually increase or decrease trust?” So really those two principles, create value, build trust. First of all, maybe we should dive into what’s included in the membership and why we think it creates value. I think what our magic is today and hope to build on is really they’re on the software, and the insights that the software provides that a lot of research and work is going into product development and the content.

Maziar Brumand (04:02):

The content that makes sense of everything that we’re seeing using CGMs. I think so, then those that the software and the content are two of the pieces, and the third everyone is community. As we learn more from our community, we can give back as we learn that how food affects different people based on their demographic age or their specific visualized metrics. How can we actually play that back to people in a way that makes sense, and also provide an environment where people can learn from each other, whether it’s from our advisors like Dr. [inaudible 00:04:35] and Sinclair, or whether it’s actually other members that they can can learn from. So, we can dive into those two. But then the third piece is obviously making the things like CGMs and vibes [inaudible 00:04:47] available in a frictionless and convenient way so that people can use them in a way to achieve their health goals.

Ben Grynol (04:55):

Yeah. Those three areas are, I think, to your point, as the team continues to operate on all fronts, which is great. I know in the app, it’s really exciting, which we’re just starting to roll out to our members now, a lot more insights or personal insights, which to be honest, we’ve been a little bit, haven’t really cracked that nut to date, because you’re still been building the infrastructure, but as we’re now just starting to tap in that database. And actually when I’m seeing foods in terms of like, “Hey, I just had pizza.” How does that affect me versus the community? And how the last 10 times I had pizza, how did I do? And now I’m actually starting to get a sense of my personal distribution with a food or type of food over time, as well as where do I sit? Is this bad for everyone?

Ben Grynol (05:39):

That’s just for us scratching the surface. We are collecting a ton of data around food and logging, which just makes the system better. And now we’re just trying to say, how do we surface that in a way that’s actionable to people? And that’s going to be different for some different people. Some people want to, give me all the nutrients, give me all the detail of people [inaudible 00:05:56]. just tell me what to go do. And we have a wide range of users that have different backgrounds, different education around metabolic health, and trying to find something that addresses all of them will continue to be a challenge. But one that is why we’re here every day and why we show up and why we’re excited to try to make it more valuable to everyone.

Maziar Brumand (06:15):

Yeah. I think the first thing we tackle is try to show people through biofeedback, how does the food that they’re consuming affect their glucose? And I think that’s sufficient necessary, but not sufficient. And the question is now, okay, now that I’ve had this response, how can I understand it from a physiological perspective? And then after I understand that, what should I do? And I think a lot of the work that Levels Advisors have done is try to make sense of that with the content that we provided. Dr. Casey obviously provided a lot of insight into how physiologically a lot of these things affect us. And the next thing is be able to do that in a way that’s really understandable and simple. And I think a lot of the work that’s going with the product today is trying to bring that understanding of how these things are affecting us in a much more easy to understand way.

Maziar Brumand (07:00):

And I think the next step is, okay, what is it in there that actually is affecting me? And what should I do about it? And I think what you mentioned around the community and the data, really showing that when I log or take a picture of the food and I log what I just ate, I’m showing that out of the things that you ate and based on the information that we have, we know that these ingredients, for example, spike other people and showing that insight, we’ll say, “Hey, out of the pizza that you ate, it’s not the pepperoni of the cheese. Maybe it’s the crus and cross.” [inaudible 00:07:30] And this is the part of the thing that affected your refuting pasta. Maybe it’s this type of pasta. So, it tells you in the food, what is it that affecting your blood sugar in a negative way?

Maziar Brumand (07:41):

And then also from the community, are there alternatives that I can explore? Some people may have the same response and maybe they have tried many different things that actually have a different response, but not reduce the quality of the enjoyment of their food.

Chris Jones (07:58):

So Maziar, what you’re telling me is I have to stick to New York style thin crust, and I can’t have that yummy gooey Chicago style, thick crust pizza anymore. Is that the summary of your-

Maziar Brumand (08:10):

Well, actually, it’s a good question. You, Chris maybe you’re okay with that. Maybe you don’t respond to wheat the same as many other people, and maybe pizza’s okay for you. And so, that’s the beauty of Levels.

Ben Grynol (08:23):

You think that that interesting thing around them, we talk a lot of this from what works in general versus works for you personally. And we are definitely of the personalized nutrition and personalized insights, but to some degree knowing where to start is good. And we might say, Hey, in general, these are foods as we write content around foods to eat at Chipotle or McDonald’s or what to order at Whole Foods, we’re doing that with somewhere on the averages, but everyone’s different. I know how I process food is very different than how my wife processes food. So, I’m much more sensitive to something that might be high in carbs in terms of my impacting my energy level or what I do, or she may not be impacted at all.

Ben Grynol (09:04):

So, a lot of the insights we might have within the app might start with, hey, these are things that people in general react well to, or spike, but everyone’s different and everyone’s unique. And if you really want to find out how food impacts you personally, that’s where having that both your individual data from the CGM, as well as bouncing up against the community of how did they react to a New York style or Chicago style pizza gives you that perspective of, are you more or less sensitive to set food?

Chris Jones (09:35):

Yeah, it really allows for the experimentational learning framework where you say, “Look, I ate these things. The thing that most people react to are these three ingredients.” And then you can run an experiment and say, “You know of those three, two of them doesn’t affect me. I’ve tried it. And one of them does.” And the only change you need to make is on that one. And then knowing what kind of change to make is just important. So just telling people, you shouldn’t eat this and you should forgo the enjoyment is not a good way to add value, really to say like, “You can get the same enjoyment by trying these three alternatives, which could give you the same enjoyment.” But it’s just a different way of looking at things. For example, I’ll tell you in my morning breakfast, I used to put in pears and bananas. Those are the things I love.

Chris Jones (10:16):

But I saw that bananas, for example, spike by 50 points. I had never have thought that would’ve… It’s impossible. If you told me that I would’ve told you crazy, but I saw that. And then the reality is between bananas and berries, I’m indifferent. I like berries just as much as I like bananas. So, the swap that I made was swap the banana for berries and no response. And I get a 10 zone score by eating the same breakfast. Just things that I changed was took out the bananas, and sometimes pears, and replaced them with Berries. So, the quality of my food experience didn’t change. But the impact on my glucose changed dramatically.

Maziar Brumand (10:57):

Bananas was one thing I ended up giving up because of my Levels. I used to have them a lot of snacks and similar to you, I had a pretty decent spike and I’m like, okay, I can do something else. I remember when I first was beta testing Levels, before I joined, my aha moment came less around the food I was eating, but the timing of that food. So it’d be in the afternoon, I’d have a Greek yogurt. And if I had the Greek yogurt and then went for a run, I was golden. But if I had that Greek yogurt and then sat down to knock out some more emails for 45 minutes to an hour and then went for the run, I was now coming down off my spike and the run accelerated it. And I would go hypoglycemic.

Maziar Brumand (11:40):

And it had been happening for me for months. And I was like, what is wrong with me? I take care of myself. I’m eating healthy. And it was the subtleness of the timing of it made all the difference in the world. That’s a whole nother dimension. We don’t talk about a ton in terms of when you eat the food, we talk about maybe having a salad before pasta. But the number of learnings that we start learning is more and more people get in the system. It makes the system smarter and the insights are going to get better over time. And that’s pretty exciting to me. Because I think there’s a lot you can get out today and we’ve only just begun.

Chris Jones (12:12):

Yeah. And I think that’s the power of the community, right? There is good science and physiology that explains why these things work the way they are, but we are all different. And so, really having the community experiences building up and allowing people to understand things, but also account for the variations between people is got to be really important. And so, with the example you made is probably, you’re not the only one that’s that. And at the same time, not everybody is that. So, really creating this learning and experimentation framework to figure out what are the things to watch out for. But even then, what actually affects me personally, is I think what the magic is.

Maziar Brumand (12:50):

Somewhere, not my story, but on the Facebook community, which is super active, last week someone posted that they had a spike with athletic greens, which is a supplement a lot of us follow with that Levels. And in 12 hours it was 32 comments from that community of, “Hey, here’s my experience. Try this, try having it before a workout, after a meal, before a meal, add it with protein, drink it by itself, drink it cold and slow.” The number of recommendations that came from that community in short order from someone just saying, “Here’s a food that I think is healthy,” but I personally had a spike, what are some things? And that crowdsourcing insight was super powerful and a lot of things that I would never even thought to try. So, that was really cool to see that community really being there to help that member out.

Chris Jones (13:38):

Yeah. I think this is why the community is a big pillar for us. And how do we build that? How do we support that? Obviously today we use simple tools like Facebook, but in the future, as we get more sophisticated and more go down the development path, this is something that we really want to leverage so that we can give to the community and the community helpful opportunity to give back, to create this great experience for everyone. One of my personal examples was I [inaudible 00:14:03] ice cream and I think it’s spice. I think it starts to spice to a lot of people. If you just eat it as a dessert at night, it is what it is. And one of the comedian insights that I got was, there’s this [inaudible 00:14:14] Franco revel ice cream, and it doesn’t.

Chris Jones (14:17):

It changed my world. It changed my world from four Levels. I eat ice cream three times a week to Levels, I stopped eating it because despite me and it was a loss, and now there’s this brand that I can go eat. I feel just as good, and it doesn’t, and it’s just that transformation, I think that it doesn’t take away. It just different. And it gets you the same result is really magical. When I thought about diet, I always thought about, you got to give up a bunch of stuff to live a healthy, active life. Whereas this is like, no, you don’t have to give it up. Just think about it differently and make adjustments.

Maziar Brumand (14:51):

I’m shorting my Hoggins [inaudible 00:14:52] stock right now as you tell your story.

Chris Jones (14:56):

I love [inaudible 00:14:56].

Maziar Brumand (14:57):

I was listening to a community call with Sam. So Sam, our CEO will often do calls with people in the community like, “Hey, here’s what we’re do. And here’s what we’re up to. And I want to get your feedback. And one of the suggestions that came out of that call with community was for desserts, was the difference between a Reese’s pieces peanut butter cup, and dark chocolate with peanut butter on it. And I’m like, this is great. So I’ve switched now. My dessert now is dark chocolate with peanut butter on it at night. And I’m to your point going, yeah, this is a lot better for me than pulling out that ice cream because I don’t have rebel and now I need to go get some.

Chris Jones (15:34):

Yeah, you should. I think that’s another perfect example, as you said agnostic to the dessert as long as I… It’s one of the desserts I like. And then finding the one that I and it doesn’t spike me was the magic. And so this speaks to, I think why we also chose a membership path. Membership implies that it’s not a transactional relationship. It’s not a one month relationship. It’s not a one way relationship where we’re just providing something to you, and that’s it. You may think of the Netflix as a membership, it’s a subscription model, but it’s not a membership.

Chris Jones (16:14):

Yeah. Because it’s mostly Netflix providing content to people. And so, but we wanted something that has this back and forth and it’s over the long term because I think it’s these type of things, insights that either members provide to members or members provide to us and then we can surface to members, is what makes this experience magical. And so, which dovetails to another question is… We get a lot of questions. I’m sure that your team gets and fields is, why is Levels right now an annual membership? Why isn’t a monthly membership? And I think this speaks to that. One is, we want people that want to be engaged with Levels over a long term, because first of all, if you really want to make underlying health and wellness improvements, you have to be in it for more than a month. You have to be.

Chris Jones (17:05):

And that doesn’t mean that you have to use CGMs. It means that you have to be engaged with your metabolic health over a long term, and really having a membership model at a period around that it’s allows you to do that is important. And the second piece is we want this two way engagement where it’s not just the transactional one month engagement and you’re out, but really are you contributing to the community and get back from that community? And so, that’s part of the reason why we decided, well, least to start, we want to only offer an annual membership instead of a monthly membership.

Maziar Brumand (17:38):

It makes me think about new year’s resolutions, which you’ll see January 1st comes around. And all of a sudden, everyone signs up for gym membership and they go for a month, and then all of a sudden they stop going. And then they realize likke, “Hey, why didn’t that work for me?” You’re changing yourself takes a little bit more than just like, “Hey, I showed up for one month.” I went from a couch to a marathon in a month. Behavior change, takes time and to learn it, I think you’re right. we want to incentivize things of like, “All right, we’re here to support you in your journey whatever it looks like.” For some people it might be, “Hey, I’ve actually learned a lot by wearing a CGM for a month. And now I want maybe to experiment on my own and leverage community.

Maziar Brumand (18:18):

And I don’t need the feedback with CGM or maybe I do a blood panel because I’m now worried about, okay, I’ve made changes to my diet. I’ve removed carbs, I’ve added more eggs and bacon, but is that actually having a negative impact on my cholesterol? And they want to balance that out to say, okay… Because as we recognize, glucose is only one data point and we are looking to have more, how do we triangulate and get lots of different data signals around food and health? Glucose is great, but it can be misleading as you get into things drinking alcohol or having canola oil, where you might get a great score, not necessarily a good thing to be eating. So, it is a start for us. But the CGM is not the end all be all. It’s just the first step for us.

Chris Jones (19:02):

Yeah. That’s a really good point. I think thinking about the membership as a holistic approach for metabolic health is actually a good way to think about it. And the reason as you said, we provided labs, it wasn’t just because we wanted to do the lab product. It was because it’s very integral into this journey of improving underlying health. And it’s the idea that maybe you get a CGM, you figure out what spikes you? Through the content, through the community, through the CGM, and then you work on it based on things that you’ve learned. And so, you could take a baseline lab and say, “Hey, here are my lab values. Whether it’s around [inaudible 00:19:37] fats and glucose, lipids, whichever, [inaudible 00:19:40] basically cholesterol. And this is where I started… I learned a bunch of stuff through using a CGM in the community, and then I want to practice those.

Chris Jones (19:49):

And maybe I get another CGM to see how I’m doing, maybe I don’t. It doesn’t matter, but you can then do another lab at six months over year and say, “Look, I’ve understood what I need to do. I’ve practiced it.” Now taking the lab so I can compare and say, wow, look at these markers that show that my health is improving. And that’s an integral approach versus an ad hoc approach of saying, I’m just going to go do a lab. You’re just going to go to CGM and they’ll really talk to each other. And you can only do that within a framework of an annual membership where things talk to each other and build on each other.

Maziar Brumand (20:24):

I’ve recently did one of the labs myself, which was comparing the last time I had blood work done, where I had to take a half day of work off, I had to drive to the hospital. I had to sit in the lobby for an hour and then was in there for 20 minutes and pretty much ruined most of my day. And then maybe my results never come back until I say, let me reach back out to my doctor. I’m like, “What happened?” But with the Levels, the metabolic panel was super easy. It was in and out in five minutes. They came to your house, they draw a couple of vials. Couple of days later showed up in the apps with guidance from our advisors. It’s not prescriptive, here’s what you should do, but what’s a good ratio for cholesterol? What’s good for triglycerides, and having world class doctors as they get their perspective around what they think is generally a normal value and optimal value, different.

Maziar Brumand (21:20):

It was so much more helpful than not just the convenience of getting the blood, but in terms of how I interpreted the results and what do I need to go do about it?

Chris Jones (21:28):

Yeah. I second that. I’ve never been excited about taking a blood test, but when I signed up to the Levels, it was cool. Somebody showed up to your house. I didn’t have to go anywhere, wait until any of that. And then obviously taking the blood, some people like needle, some people don’t, but I don’t know many people that like needles, but maybe there are some out there. But generally that experience is never meant or viewed as to be a positive experience. But it’s funny. I was looking forward to this because I was feeling like I’m going to get something back. It’s not about doing the blood test. Usually when I get a blood test as annual checkup, just meaningless. You do it. First of all, it takes a lot of time to do it, a lot of friction, but then you get the results back.

Chris Jones (22:04):

A bunch of stuff does make sense with acronyms and a bunch of ranges that are not personalized in any way. And I don’t even really understand what the implications are. And I think what we’ve tried to do is obviously reduce that friction to the extent that we can’t. The fact that you don’t have to wait, some people are working on your schedule instead of you on them. And the fact that it shows up act. Can you rap? You don’t have to go phone somebody or text somebody or do any of that. It just shows up. And I think what I’d loved about it, the most probably was the context that was there. Really hearing from the experts in the field, what does it mean to have a TG over HDL ratio? That’s X, Y, Z? Why is that even important for me?

Chris Jones (22:44):

And looking at the most forward thinking best researchers that talking about that was super interesting [inaudible 00:22:49] that I’ve never seen anymore. Obviously Levels is a general wellness app. So, we’re not providing specific medical advice to people, but just seeing like, how do the experts think about these metrics and these ratios, and based on the best research that’s out there, where do I sit in that range? And that I could make the judgment for me. And obviously if I want to go talk to a doctor, I can outside of Levels, you can say, you can take that to the my doctor and say, “Hey, this is the thing that I took this.” I understand it makes me much more educated to have that conversation with my doctor instead of getting a bunch of lab results that I really don’t understand and know what to do with. And they seem okay. But when you look at it in combination, they’re probably, or maybe not okay, but because labs are graded on an individual basis, they all seem okay. And so anyways, I found that super exciting and interesting and looking forward to the next one.

Maziar Brumand (23:38):

Yeah. It reminds me of a different value that we haven’t necessarily fully tapped into yet. But I could see down the roadmap of when I was first using Levels, I had my annual checkout and I was in there and I had my CGM on and my doctor was a huge fan of it. She’s like, “Yeah, love it. Good for you. To be actually getting that feedback around your diet. And now I’m imagining having that next same checkup of now I’m having conversation with my doctor around like, hey… Because she started asking questions about my diet around, is it plant-based? Are you eating too much saturated fat? So now it’s like I’ve got to see a log, a journal, the foods I’m eating, the foods I’ve react good to or not. And now I can actually, whether it be with a doctor or nutritionalist or someone, I can have a much richer conversation. Because I have this diary of this is what I’ve been needing and this is how my body reacts to it as a record, I can start making changes based on.

Maziar Brumand (24:31):

So, getting data out of the app, not just for the individual, but to have a conversation with your family, your doctor, your nutritionalist becomes very powerful.

Chris Jones (24:41):

Yeah. I think that’s part of the value of what the membership is, it gives you tools so that you can get more out of it from different aspects. One is how do you interact with your doctor? And so the thing that I’ve always been my [inaudible 00:24:55] pet pee when I go to the doctor, first of all, [inaudible 00:24:57] it has that family history thing every time. It’s almost like no past interaction informs the current or future interaction. It’s like [inaudible 00:25:05] that you show up and it’s the same questions, no information in my previous visit will inform this one and they probably don’t even read that stuff. So, I think allowing that continuity or as you come to that visit with bunch of information that you, as the consumer have been educated on, have been tracking and in partnership with your doctor, you look at it.

Chris Jones (25:27):

So, also the doctor’s in a tough position. They’re going to see for a short amount of time that have the information that they get in those standardized form, pulling up exactly what they get. They got their way. And also they had a lot of time may not be helpful, but we’re coming to this relationship between our doctor, at least for me personally, it’s just so much more powerful and a lot of them appreciate. It’s like, “Wow, this is really great. Now let’s talk about the specifics.” And then what it does, but it also allows for the next conversation to build on this instead of being to get it totally brought on new thing where you show up and they ask you the same questions all over again, without any continuing.

Maziar Brumand (26:04):

Yeah. I’m just picturing that. You’re right. It is just a reminder of our current healthcare system. There’s so much efficiency and so much areas for improvement for a better experience, more convenient more easier to carry around in your pocket versus the, hey, I just moved and now I have to go get all my records from one provider and carry it my little pamphlet and take it of x-rays and read outs. It makes it hard when people are mobile of like, if you’ve been seeing the same doctor your entire life, he or she may know that just because he’d been seeing you. But if you people move around a lot and that becomes much harder to go from system to system, versus like, all right, to what degree can I have information about me in my pocket all the time and see how I’m improving or not over time? As we talked about some of the markers of tracking improvements cholesterol or ratios.

Maziar Brumand (26:55):

A lot of people that come to us from support a lot is they’re looking for weight loss or improved diets. And one thing that’s really rewarding is when members don’t just… Obviously, we’re more than happy to answer questions as they come in terms of like, hey, what should I do? Here’s what I’m trying to solve or to get more value out of it. But when people actually share their stories with us proactively. This morning we had a member that wrote into support and she uploaded a video to us of basically just saying, thank you to Levels of, “Hey, I’ve tried lots of things. I’ve been using Levels. Seeing what caused my blood sugar spikes was the most beneficial thing to me.” And through changes in her lifestyle and diet because of seeing what cause those spikes, she lost eight inches in her waistline. And that’s significant outcome. So, our goal eventually is like, are we also changing health outcome for people?

Maziar Brumand (27:48):

And are you being healthier? Are you living a better lifestyle? Are you getting better sleep? Are you eating a better diet? That’s really our end goal is to be here and to support you in that journey in any way we can. It made my day when I got that video of like, wow. Usually in support, you only hear about what goes wrong. Hey, this didn’t work or I can’t figure out how to log in or I can’t find that thing or my app crashed. But when people take the time, so not just say, “Hey, you guys are great.” But to record a video and upload it and send it to us, that really meant something.

Chris Jones (28:19):

Yeah. It reminds me of when I was at Apple, we’d get these [inaudible 00:28:23] letters, which one of the health features either helped save a life or improve people’s lives or they’d write to Tim and get a copy. It’s the same thing. It’s really rewarding when you see that. And I think obviously we’re trying to improve the underlying metabolic health people, which has many different implications for different people. Some people want to manage their weight, some people want to have more energy. Some people may want to make sure they don’t progress into things that will reduce their quality of life. It’s many different things. But the beauty about, I think what we’re doing is we’re providing the underlying changes in your metabolic health that could lead to these things and different people will obviously get different value out of it.

Chris Jones (29:00):

For example, this member that you’re describing, the thing that they cared about the most is the eight inches. And also, probably not progressing some of these diseases that come with weight issues. But the beauty is they used it, and got the value out of this thing based on the things that we’ve provided. And this value could be very different for different people. One of the questions that we sometimes get is that, pricing of [inaudible 00:29:24]. Hey, what is this thing paying for? And why is it this amount? And I think obviously we’re a star. So, we are early in our journey and there’s a lot that comes over time with economic scale and improvements. And so, I think it’s no different than some of the products out there that are on the leading edge.

Chris Jones (29:52):

Tesla was a good example. The first vehicle that came out was over a hundred thousand dollars, is probably nowhere as capable as the vehicles that come out today. So, a lot less capability and a lot more expensive, but over time is this idea that how can we improve the value while reducing costs? And I think we’re at that stage where we think we’ve created a product that will deliver a lot of values to sell people, which is as example that you use. And then over time, we hope that we can deliver. And for that person the value they’re getting out of the product is way more than the membership fee that they’re paying.

Chris Jones (30:30):

There could be others that today may not be in that boat. The price of the membership maybe higher than the value that they’ll get out of it. And that’s fine. And that’s really our effort to increase the value we’re creating for more and more people while reducing cost. And so, that’s obviously something that we’re constantly thinking about and trying to bring that to more people at a more reasonable price. And it’s just where we are in this stage of the company where we’re working.

Maziar Brumand (31:04):

If we look at our user base today, Chris to your point, a lot of them are pretty well informed. They follow a lot of our advisors, they read a lot of blogs and they’re vested in terms of making changes, which is great. And the feedback they’ve given has been incredible. But I think we realize the people that could probably get the most benefit from our product are the ones that really can’t afford it. They’re the ones that are eating McDonald’s or convenience food, because either one, they don’t have time, they don’t have the money to go to Whole Foods and get riches. So, as we think about solving the metabolic health crisis, affordability over time becomes a huge thing for us to get leverage, to get into the audiences that people are going, “Hey sure. I’d to know more about new foods, but that’s just way outside my price range. And I just don’t have that type of disposal income.” And you’re right.

Maziar Brumand (31:52):

Our goal is saying, how do we make this more affordable over time and bring that price down so that we can really unlock this for the masses? Not just the people that say, “Yes, I’ve got extra money that I can spend and I’m trying everything under the sun.” And they’re great to learn from, and we’re super excited about the results so far. But we really need to long term make it more affordable so we can really make an impact.

Chris Jones (32:16):

Yeah. I think one of our goals is impact the billion people and in reaching that goal, one of the necessary steps is to make this affordable. And so, there are many ways, obviously, as you know we’re working on to achieve that and it’s just going to be one step at a time. Hopefully we’ll get there.

Maziar Brumand (32:36):

There’s a lot of conversation we have internally around what’s Levels, I guess, lag from the free offering. And one we have a very rich blog today, we have tons of content, lots of newsletters. A lot of people are learning around things that are good or bad for them without ever having unity to sign up, which is great. The content that we create on Levels is part of our value proposition of like, we want to make sure that we are reaching the people that can’t afford Levels. And they’re benefiting from our learnings in terms of, these are foods that, if you have to go to Chipotle or McDonald’s because these are things that you should likely get and not get this. Can you make small changes versus the, I can’t afford to go to Whole Foods and completely change out my grocery cart. So, there’s a lot of things that we’re trying to do where it’s like, hey, these are free things that we’re giving back to the community, regardless if you’re part of the membership or not.

Chris Jones (33:26):

Yeah. I think that’s a good point. I think we’ve cautiously made the decision to make our blog really rich and I’ll put it behind the pay walls, because the people that will benefit from that information benefit for free. I think also disambiguating between obviously the two costs of Levels. One is obviously the membership fee which we separated out, which currently it’s $200 a year. And then the other one is cost of other third party services CGMs, and labs, and nutritionists. And the reason we separated the two is, with Levels, you need to at least to start to use a CGM. We don’t make that CGM. And we don’t also want to be in a position where we make money on that CGM. So, this idea that we don’t want to be incentivized to sell you more stuff or less stuff because we don’t make money on the hardware or labs or any of that.

Chris Jones (34:19):

And we wanted to align our interests with our members that we would only recommend these third party services while we think it will benefit your health. And we don’t benefit either way. And it’s really for us to make the right recommendation for the member. And the cost of what they are or what they are today we’re working on helping them make more affordable. But really what we’re trying to do in that front is make sure that, hey, we make the process as frictionless as possible. So for example, the physician consult and the delivery and all that just, magically happens. So that we get that third party product, two more members in a seamless way. Or for example, as we talked about the labs, you can just order it through the app, the [inaudible 00:35:02] goes up to your house, takes the thing, the results show up magically in your app.

Chris Jones (35:05):

So, what we’ve tried to optimize is obviously we need to work on costs. In the consumer market, we’re trying to reach a lot of people. We need to bring the cost of those down in partnership with our people that are providing needs. But really for now optimizing on the friction. Make it as easily available to people and make sure that the quality of people that we’ve worked with are also really high. We don’t want to go work with people that people with suppliers or partners that are member base find to be not high quality. I think that goes to the angle of building trust. So, I think it’s that piece, which is the third party stuff that we don’t make ourselves. The cost or the price doesn’t benefit Levels we’re passing it on.

Chris Jones (35:49):

And then there’s the membership fee. And so, what the membership fee really pays for, we need to continue to invest in making Levels better. And also being a for profit company, there needs to be some return so that we can actually raise money and build the product. So, the membership fee is really where the fee goes to Levels to help us improve our product and invest in our product, and also being a position as a for profit company to grow. And so, I think that’s a question that comes a lot is like, hey, why am I paying $200 per month of CGMs and $200 per year of membership? Can you explain that to me? And I think the explanation is that we tried to not make money on the CGM. So, none of that goes to Levels or we can at least in a meaningful way. And we’re trying to pass that on. We don’t want to be incentivized to sell more stuff [inaudible 00:36:42]. And really the Levels membership fee is what’s helping us develop the program and invest in the company.

Maziar Brumand (36:49):

In the the examples you brought up, which I completely agree with, but at the same time, I think Levels realize we try to improve that member experience with that technology. So, the example is when you get CGM through Levels, it comes into Levels kit. We support it. When you have questions, you reach out to Levels support. We provide education, videos, and we’re supporting you with that. Whether it be that lab or that CGM through it. It’s not the, hey you’ve got the CGM through us now, if you have any questions, go to the manufacturer who made it. That would not be… We’re trying to say, hey, how did you get the most value out of it? One example, I think about, we were looking at people that we saw a handful of people that had ordered a CGM through Levels, but we didn’t see them show up in the app.

Maziar Brumand (37:40):

And we actively reached out to them to say, “Hey, it doesn’t look you’re getting as much value from the membership as you could. One, is there anything that we need to do to help you in the journey? Where did you get stuck?” Because you’re right. Some companies might have said, “Hey, we got someone money from someone and they didn’t use it. Great. That’s going to be less support volume.” We had to said, “No, we want to reach out and help you in the journey to figure out, get as much value from this as you possibly can. And if you’re not, we need to make sure are we making it more seamless? Is it more instruction manuals? Is it more videos? Is it more white glove service where we pair you up to someone like a power user of the community to share their experience as they went through their Levels journey.”

Maziar Brumand (38:22):

So I absolutely agree that we’re not here to sell product. We want to make sure the product that you do buy from us, you get value out of it because if you’re not, then we failed. And we need to make sure that we have offerings that are compelling for all sorts of different types of users.

Chris Jones (38:36):

Yeah. And I think that was part of the philosophy of the membership. We don’t want to be a gym membership where we want to bring in a ton of people and the less they use it, the more money we make. And that’s not what we want. We actually want people to be engaged with Levels so that they can see the improvement in their underlying health and want to come back and use more Levels and be a member for years to come. So, by separating the buying stuff from us on an out of stock basis, CGM to maps and stuff from our profit making, we don’t make money or lose money by people using the stuff. So, we’re not a gym where the less you use us, the more money we make or the more you use us like a car dealership or an oil change place, the more money you would make.

Chris Jones (39:16):

So, we separated that incentive to say, the more you use us or the less you use us, the money doesn’t change. What we really want though, is people getting value out of the experience so that they come back year after year, and really contribute back so we can make things better. We’re provided to other community members. So, I think that’s definitely a pillar of when we were thinking about membership to make sure that we’ve created the right incentives to impact it.

Maziar Brumand (39:48):

As you talk about incentives, a couple of things that we’ve done recently within Levels is, we’ve almost entirely stopped reporting metrics revenue, which is normally what most companies report on. Hey, what was revenue last month? Last week? What we want to focus on is the value members are getting and our north star today is food logging. And what percentage of our member bases are getting the app and logging food, because for us, that’s really the thing we can grab onto of you just had that pizza, that pasta, that sandwich, that banana, and berries. Did that help or hurt you? How did that react? That’s really the value that we’re providing. And if people aren’t logging food, then we know they’re not getting the maximum value out of the app. And we’re trying to really say, okay, let’s make sure we’re laser focused around the experience and how seamless it is and how removing the friction and really digging in around how do more value around a north star metric like logging food.

Maziar Brumand (40:44):

And if you do that and add value, the money will come. And we actually don’t want to be distracted by a good revenue week or a bad revenue week because it can go down dark patterns where that’s really what you focus on of, all right, we do an A/B test and which one generates more revenue. That’s absolutely the wrong thing to do for us. It’s like, well, which one generated more people, logging food, going to the insight cards, consuming the content based upon the personalized experience? And that’s just a difference of how we operate to a point we’re trying to be aligned with membership value and how we measure that, and how we track and optimize what we do to help make sure that our incentives are aligned is really refreshing to see having worked for several companies.

Chris Jones (41:25):

Yeah. And I think some of the most companies in the world are ones that are creating value for people. And we really want it to be that, which is we want actually people’s health to improve. And how do we think about that? What are the things that… What type of engagement do we need to create to help people improve their health? Obviously the duration is one, making sure that people are engaged over the long term. The second is what kind of behavior in the app actually could lead to better outcomes? Obviously food logging, if you log in your food and seeing the impact of that and [inaudible 00:41:57] glucose, then you can make those decisions or experimentations around how to make adjustments or other lifestyle factors like exercise. By seeing that behavior in the app, at least we know that people are engaging and based on that engagement, hopefully they’re learning things that will help them improve their underlying health and really chasing that to make sure, A, the program that we’re creating actually does create engagement.

Chris Jones (42:20):

And if it does create engagement, it does actually move the right metrics that show that people’s health and [inaudible 00:42:25] improving. And really design around that instead of trying to change revenue. How many people can we get into the app? How fast to book that revenue, or how many CGMs can we sell to people to book that revenue? I think that’s the long approach. And so, I think we’ve been deliberate about that. And we look to our community to learn every day. We’re again, still a startup and there’s a lot more learning for us to do. We’re probably not perfect. And so, we’re making changes as we hear back feedback.

Maziar Brumand (42:52):

This category is for general wellness is really, really new. There’s a lot of just pure education. A couple of years ago if you asked someone what metabolic health was, they probably have no idea what you’re talking about. And it’s still early in that journey. But a lot of it’s convincing people why this matters and why this is such an epidemic that isn’t talked about today. Because sometimes is it because it’s hard to manage? Is it because it takes too long to figure out the outcomes or is it just something like, we didn’t know what to do about it. But now you where actually trying to get out there and more proactiveness of like, all right, let’s not wait till you… It’d be an example like, let’s wait till you have a stroke before you start measuring your heart rate and heart rate variability.

Maziar Brumand (43:32):

Be like, no, you should’ve said no well ahead. And we’re in the same thing. Let’s not wait till you have a disease where it’s like, I’m sorry, you’re diabetic. Didn’t you know that?

Chris Jones (43:43):

Yeah.

Maziar Brumand (43:44):

The further up that we can actually start informing people around the decisions they make add up. And I think, again, this is a long term journey. It’s not the, “Hey I’m going to sign up on January 1st and for a month and then I’m going to be magically healthy.” This is about continue lifestyle choices you make around the quality of the sleep, exercise, what you’re putting in your body. Food being medicine or poison, and that adds up. And sometimes it’s not always going to show up in a week or a month. It could be like, “Hey, I’m tracking this over my journey, because I want to live to be 150.” And technology is changing and what a big factor is, the food we use and it’s exciting the mission run, but it’s a big one.

Chris Jones (44:24):

Yeah. Agreed. I think one of the things that excited me about the health space that really changed the trajectory of my career, this was at Apple was really putting the consumer at the center of their health. Because the person that cares most about their health is the person, usually. And so, it makes a lot of sense to put that person at the center and inform them and educate them and provide feedback in a way that will help them know what to do to improve their health. And what excited me about joining Levels for Apple was this idea that, A, we’re putting people at the center of their health and B, we’re providing personalized value feedback to people. It’s the hamburger I eat shows up with very short feedback loop to me to see how that affected my glucose.

Chris Jones (45:08):

And that’s pretty magical. I think these bio wearables that should give you direct feedback of how that specific thing affected you personally and what it could mean for your health is the thing that excites me, that is a step change in how health has been done. And I think companies Applewood, Advent Health, and really changing the conversation, you started this and then companies like Levels come around as part of that ecosystem of building on top and partnering with people in the industry like the CGM manufacturers, using wearables and the platform that Apple and Google have created for health data to really help people understand their behavior and how that’s impacting their health. And our job is really to show people that, and then provide coaching whether through content or community or other needs to help them improve that.

Chris Jones (45:59):

And I think that’s the value that we’re hoping to create for people. And the way that we think we can do that is obviously through the three pillars we’ve talked about, which is make a software that does all that, provides the feedback, provides the coaching, provides the insights for the content that goes with that. That’s just in time digestible, understandable, actionable and research fundamentally based in research, not hearsay. The second part is the community really being part of something, really getting and learning and getting coaching from those people, whether it’s on world class advisors like Dr. Lustig and Dr. Sinclair, and Ben Bickman and all those guys, but also our peers that are in different parts of their journey.

Chris Jones (46:44):

And they can provide learnings that we can obviously do experiments on, see if it works for us or not. But that hand in hand it’s the software and the experimentation framework, the content and the community together is the value that we’re hoping to provide through this membership. And this doesn’t work if we don’t think of this as a long term membership, which is a two grade relationship that we’re willing to work on.

Maziar Brumand (47:08):

I couldn’t agree more. You mentioned Dr. Sinclair. I remember being on the community call where we opened it up to our community base of, hey, let’s have the book club where it’s 90 people on a Zoom call and Dr. Sinclair… And you should see some of the fan boys and fan girls that were in that. And they’re, “I’ve been following this person forever and now I’m in a Zoom for his book club that he wrote.” Those moments are pretty special and we’ve got a great advisory board and they’re super helpful and they’re willing to participate. And whether it be a podcast, a book club, and they’re really engaged. And to your point, even their insights that’s showing up within the app. When I’m looking at my blood panel around like, what do our advisors say about this metric? And I’d be now I know that person and I respect them in terms of them leading the field.

Maziar Brumand (47:58):

And it’s really cool because again, pull their insights of people that have been focused most of their lives on this problem. How do we make this easier to consume? How do we make it personable? And how do we make it where we surface just that insight based upon what you’re doing in terms of your lifestyle, what you’re eating? It’s fun and it’s exciting for me.

Chris Jones (48:16):

Yeah, it definitely is relatable. And it takes people out of the ivory towers to like, these are everyday people that are spending all their life trying to help people. And that conversation back and forth is quite magical. The other thing that we did was to highlight the member centricity and community aspect was we just recently closed our series A funding round. And as part of that, we really wanted to make sure that the people that are in our community are members that are contributing and have been early supporters of us, have an opportunity to be owners of the company.

Chris Jones (48:50):

So we opened… Even though it was really challenging to do this because of Crowdfund will be opened an allocation for our members and more than 1,000 members invested in Levels to be along with the [inaudible 00:49:04]. And I think we think that creates also the right incentive because now it’s an integral piece as Levels succeeds, they succeed. And it doesn’t even matter if it’s $20 investment or $5,000 investment. It doesn’t really matter. But really wanting to make people feel like they are part Levels, they are owners of Levels. And so, that is part and parcel to our membership and community approach.

Maziar Brumand (49:29):

Yeah. I remember watching that campaign and thinking, all right, how long is it going to have to be before we start asking employees to post it on their LinkedIn page or put it up on Twitter to get more eyeballs on it. And it was oversubscribed in hours with one email to our existing member base, of just one email letting them know. And it was really exciting just to see the energy, the passion from our early adopters who give us videos, who jump on calls with us. They’re a critical piece for us to make this better. Because they’re the ones trying it out. Here’s what works for me. Here’s other apps that I use. Here’s how I’m entering my data or what I’m finding valuable or not.

Maziar Brumand (50:13):

So, it was another example that was just incredible to see the ground soil effort of our community. Basically yes, I want to sign up to your point, whether it’s five bucks or $5,000, I want to be part of this journey because I think what you guys are doing are cool. And I realize this early and I’m going to be part of that journey with you. It was super cool to watch and be part of, and I’m really glad we did it as a company, even though I felt bad for Zach having to go through all the paperwork.

Chris Jones (50:37):

Yeah. That was tough. We probably wrapped this up, but I’m really excited about the journey head. We’re obviously probably [inaudible 00:50:44] one and there’s a lot more come and I just love the fact that we’re hearing from our members. And obviously you are probably at the forefront of hearing from our members. And I really enjoy that we post a lot of the feedback. Obviously at anonymized so that probably it’s protected, but feedback from people. And then we talk about them we debate it and we’ll to address it. So, I hope this podcast and other communication encourages that because we know we are not perfect. We haven’t figured it all out and hearing from people is part of the core promise of membership.

Maziar Brumand (51:16):

Absolutely. And probably I would say my wrap up was for existing or future Levels members. I just want to huge, thank you to all of you, your contribution, and you believing in us that has gotten us this far. So, I just want to say it’s because of the time you give us and your energy and your time that makes us successful. So, I just want to thank our existing members and all of our future members out there. So it’s going to be fun and I’m excited.