#119 – How chef Paul Canales’ journey with CGMs changed the way he thinks about food (Paul Canales & Ben Grynol)

For a chef, flavor is everything. But what happens when one starts wearing a Levels CGM? In this episode, Levels Head of Growth, Ben Grynol, chatted with Paul Canales, Head Chef of Duende Restaurant in Oakland, California. They discuss how wearing a CGM has changed his perspective on the way he crafts dishes and his views on when and how to indulge.

03:59 – Deliver the best meal experience

As a chef, Paul wants to serve a high quality experience. Now that he’s using Levels, he’s taking the health impact into account as much as the flavor.

My goal in all, in my cooking at the restaurant is always the sustainability, the quality of my products. It’s all getting the very best food and the service of the very best dining experience. So first and foremost is obviously the flavor and you know, then how these things are made and the techniques involved and your creative inspiration and all these things come into play. But ultimately, you’re thinking about this in terms of people’s dining experience, not what you might be doing to their health or your health along the way. So the first thing that came up was thinking about what do I do with these things that I eat because I’m seeing these crazy spikes or just sustained levels of higher blood glucose, not even necessarily a big spike, but maybe something sitting around at 114, 115 for a couple of hours. And then seeing something like a big sandwich with a wild, beautiful roll. That was my Easter last year. We went and did a big picnic and I had this big sandwich. That lasted actually about a day and a half of elevated levels because there was so much bread in that.

06:35 – Experiment with starches

A different preparation can make something have a lower impact, but what matters most is how much of it you eat.

Another thing is I learned about, again, through Levels, through your little tips that you give us, about resistant starch. Now that’s a concept I had no idea about. So I started taking things that I might want to eat and see what would happen if I treated them with resistant starch. So there was… I used whole grain farro, for example. And then I did things with sweet potatoes and regular potatoes and chickpea pasta. What would happen if I cooked it and ate it? And then what would happen if I cooked it and then let it sit overnight and then did it? So kind of playing with resistant starches and then seeing the impacts of that. An interesting, curious thing that came up about that had to do with dosage. So this is probably something I see this a lot on the Levels Facebook page and dosage is kind of something we don’t think about. Like, “Oh, I’m golden, I’m bulletproof. I did this to this thing.” Well, if you eat a whole bunch of it kind of doesn’t matter. You may not get a spike, but you’re going to get elevated blood glucose. So I started playing around a lot from a culinary perspective of how to treat these starches. And in some cases, it just doesn’t matter.

10:31 – Be conscious of what you’re serving

Paul is marrying the things that people want with better methods so that they’re healthier without losing any flavor.

What happens if I cook those potatoes same day and then cook them? Or if I cook them overnight? Well, one they’re better crispy, fluffy in the inside potato if I do it a day ahead. My blood glucose was quite a bit different if I did it the next day. Now it’s not night and day, I’m still going to get elevation… And dosage, it keeps coming back to dosage. So can I enjoy that? Well, sure. I can if I preload some fiber and maybe have some vinegar and water before. And I order my meal in a proper way, but if I just go cold into some patatas bravas, I’m going to have a problem. So it really affected… I almost had a little bit of a funny breakdown, Ben, as a chef of what am I doing? You know, what am I doing to people? And how can I be conscious of that? And people want fried food. People want dessert. You know, there are things I can do, but there are ways of maneuvering some things now, like for example, with Big Bold Health coming out with their Himalayan tartary buckwheat. So I have a good relationship with them and I’ve started making things like blinis, little pancakes made with Himalayan tartary buckwheat and almond flour that people are insane for.

15:54 – Educate the kitchen staff

Many of his staff had been with him before he started his Levels journey. When he started changing things, he educated them on why.

Well then when we opened, some of my cooks are with me. And this is now fast forward over a year, because I didn’t get open until June of 2021. So I had been working on several of these changes and insights. So I started talking to my team about it right away. And two of the guys that are my chefs now came back after being gone for three years. So they have no idea what’s going on. And so they’re like, why are we doing that? And why are we doing this? So I’m educating them. And then with the buckwheat that happened in the middle of 2021, so they already saw that being brought in and now they love it. They’re totally excited and experimenting as is my pastry chef with taking white flour out and how much buckwheat can you add back in? Or how much can you deal with almond flour so that we can do this stuff? How much can we work with fat in dessert so that we’re trying to blunt some of those spikes. And then also educating our server staff. So yeah. And they want to know why are we making a farro paella? Why would we do that? Well, there’s a reason why we do that.

22:23 – If something is subpar, don’t eat it

Don’t make meals that you don’t like. Either find a different substitution or indulge in the original form a few times a year.

But if you can’t substitute and get the right effect, just don’t do it. So don’t make risotto. Make a delicious cauliflower. There’s a million things you could do. You could make amazing cauliflower things that are beyond. But if you ne2d risotto, make risotto once a year or twice a year and just eat it. Do all the things ahead, make sure you’re lifting weights so your muscles are ready to absorb. Do resistance training. Do these things. Go for an hour walk or go for a 20 minute walk right after not even five minutes. That’s what I found. Do not wait. The gold standard is a brisk 20 minute walk, right? I mean, I learned that from you guys. But if you can’t do that, do the dishes, fold laundry, do something, do some squats for 15 minutes or do something to kind of give your body a shot. Just don’t eat cauliflower rice if it’s not good. That’s my personal thing.

25:21 – Start fasting

If you hit a plateau with your glucose response improvement, try fasting.

After about a month and a half, I want to say, or two months with Levels, I just couldn’t get a breakthrough. I was too insulin resistant without knowing it. I was too overweight, whatever it was, I could not get the breakthrough. So I did a weekend of 24 hour fasting where I ate Friday night, six o’clock or whatever, five o’clock, 5:30, and I didn’t eat again until Saturday night at 5:30. And then I did it again to Sunday. And then Monday things calmed down for the first time. I started seeing that more stable thing that you’re looking for. So then I started… So now I do that at the end of every month or beginning of every month. But then I started getting into 12 hour and then 16 hour. Now I’m doing 18 hour.

33:57 – Make the best choices at a restaurant

When you eat out at a restaurant, make the best choices you can. Skip the bun or the fries and ask for extra salad.

One is your regular going out and you’re going to choose. So make the best choices you can and don’t be afraid to ask questions. You don’t have to be sort of militant and say, “Is there any sugar in anything?” I mean, that’s kind of impossible, but you can make choices and you can kind of arrange your meal so you’re eating a mango salad or you’re eating something beforehand, you get into your other thing. So you sort of try to set that up and a handful of pumpkin seeds or some vinegar before is not going to hurt you. So that’s a good way to do it. You’re making choices around… When I come to my own restaurant sometimes, if my wife wants to split a Duende burger, I’ll probably have that bun, but I’m going to skip the chips on the side and I’m going to ask for a bigger arugula salad in my own restaurant.

36:44 – Prepare for a big meal

Another option is to prepare for a big, celebratory meals. Do extra exercise, eat a few carbs before.

So if you are going to a meal like that, then I think if you’re doing everything you’re doing, give yourself a couple days ahead where you are introducing some things that maybe will bring you up a little bit and back down so your body knows, and it’s not so crazy. Resistance training. Weights to keep your muscles. Eating glucose, that’s very important. And then when you go do the things ahead that you know you should do and then enjoy the damn Thanksgiving dinner or enjoy the tasting menu. And then the next day eat something. Don’t fast too much because I think fasting long right after something like that, there’s a tendency to want to, I’ve been bad, be good now and don’t eat for a day. I don’t think people recommend that. I think you want to eat, get back to your normal thing, eat a little less and give your body a chance to kind of come back to normal.

41:23 – Savor a few bites

After three bites, you start to lose sensation in your tongue. Those first bites will be the best, so savor them instead of eating a bunch of something with a high glycemic load.

To get to your point about dosage or amount, this is a crazy thing. And it’s a hundred percent true. On your palate, after three bites, you lose tremendous amount of sensation on your tongue. So if you eat three bites of something really delicious and you want to keep going crazy, you are not really tasting as much what you were doing the way you were when you first started. So your first bite of something is delicious. If you slow down and you fully enjoy that, and then you get the next bite and you fully enjoy that. And then the next over time, the next bite, you slow down, you’ll find you don’t need to eat that much of it because your palate has been satisfied. Your hunger, the savory part of it, is satiated. Now whether you’re full or not is what else you’re eating and all of that. But you really don’t need to eat a supersize amount of french fries and they’re not even good after a little while.

48:25 – Make healthier swaps

Paul and his wife have learned some easy swaps for some of their favorite cuisines, like turning burritos into burrito bowls.

So you mentioned other cuisines. So yeah. So for example, I love Mexican food. I’m in California. We eat a lot of it. So we have converted a burrito, a big burrito into burrito bowls, and the burrito bowls are the way we eat it. And if we do have a chip, it might be a chip or two that we’re eating. But yeah, so we’ve reconsidered all that stuff. If we make a stir fry, I’ve tried shirataki noodles and shirataki rice. I love them. My wife does not like them. They’re too squeaky for her. My kid… Well, now my kids are older, but they didn’t love the texture of them. So we just make a stir fry and we kind of don’t seem to need to make the rice. So exploring all these cuisines where there is something that we want to avoid or something we’re not really into and it’s not really essential.

Paul Canales (00:06):

I almost had a little bit of a funny breakdown as a chef of, what am I doing? What am I doing to people? And how can I be conscious of that? People want fried food, people want dessert. I did a cool thing yesterday, a slurry of Himalayan Tartary Buckwheat. I’ve got all this fiber from the Himalayan Tartary Buckwheat and no spike.

Paul Canales (00:27):

So now, I’m making braise, dusting with Himalayan Tartary buckwheat instead of white flour in the restaurant. So I’m constantly thinking about food and how can I manage it?

Ben Grynol (00:45):

I’m Ben Grynol, part of the early startup team here at Levels. We’re building tech that helps people to understand their metabolic health. And this is your front row seat to everything we do. This is A Whole New Level. Food is a really deep topic. It’s also a very personal one. When we tend to talk about food, well, it’s usually from the perspective of a nutritionist.

Ben Grynol (01:22):

Well, Paul Canales, he’s head chef and owner of a restaurant called Duende located in Oakland. He’s also a member of Levels. When he started using a CGM over a year ago, well his relationship and his lens, in the way that he created dishes, the way he prepared dishes, it changed drastically.

Ben Grynol (01:39):

He started to get insight into the way that the food that he was making and preparing, well, the impact that it would have on the metabolic health of those he was serving. And so Paul’s journey with food has continued to evolve over the past year. He started incorporating more things like fasting. He started to think about when is it okay to indulge and if you are going to indulge, how can you change the way that you approach it?

Ben Grynol (02:02):

It’s not that we want people to ever go through the cycle of deprivation. They shouldn’t just stop doing things altogether, but it’s important to know that there are different avenues and different choices that can be made, very much individual ones and personal ones, when people start to think about the way that they can consume food differently to optimize their own metabolic health.

Ben Grynol (02:22):

It’s a really fun conversation to have with Paul and to hear some of the tips and tricks about the way that he prepares food and even some of the ways that people can prepare their own food as they evolve their journey with metabolic health. Here’s where we kick things off.

Ben Grynol (02:42):

So we’ve got you here, owner, head chef of Duende in Oakland. So very much focused on tapas and small plates, Spanish and Basque inspired cuisine. It’s interesting because we talk to a lot of people about food, like whether they’re our members or whether they’re nutritionists, but your lens on food is so different being a restaurateur. So you create food, you design food, you think about it differently. And so it’d be interesting to dig into this idea of how your lens might have evolved once you started to see data that was associated with basically everything that you’ve spent your life and your career doing and building.

Paul Canales (03:21):

Yes, man. And there’s two things: one, starting with Levels, of course, it’s all insight. And eventually once you get to a certain place, you can get to optimization, but there’s so much insight. So I’m going through this personally, and it’s such a weird feeling because you have a look at what’s actually happening in your body. And you know, how Peter Attia talks about that disconnect between your intentions and what you actually will do? And then you need the accountability to actually show you that? Well, it felt like I was a foreign object or something. It was very strange because again, I think about food all the time. And my goal in all, in my cooking at the restaurant is always the sustainability, the quality of my products. It’s all getting the very best food and the service of the very best dining experience.

Paul Canales (04:12):

So first and foremost is obviously the flavor and you know, then how these things are made and the techniques involved and your creative inspiration and all these things come into play. But ultimately, you’re thinking about this in terms of people’s dining experience, not what you might be doing to their health or your health along the way. So the first thing that came up was thinking about what do I do with these things that I eat because I’m seeing these crazy spikes or just sustained levels of higher blood glucose, not even necessarily a big spike, but maybe something sitting around at 114, 115 for a couple of hours. And then seeing something like a big sandwich with a wild, beautiful roll. That was my Easter last year. We went and did a big picnic and I had this big sandwich. That lasted actually about a day and a half of elevated levels because there was so much bread in that.

Paul Canales (05:16):

And again, my metabolism wasn’t in a great place to handle that. So it wasn’t just the spike, it was these elevations. So I thought about this a lot. And when I started doing experiments and talking with Brandon McCarthy a lot via email, I started doing a lot of experiments on my challenges. So for example, what would happen if I took cooked beans? So I whether I cook them or whether they’re a can of beans, there’s a lot of starch in that liquid. And that starch is really valuable from a culinary point of view because it adds a sort of a suaveness to a sauce or a coating that’s really amazing. It’s really very valuable, but it jacks your blood.

Ben Grynol (06:02):

Mm.

Paul Canales (06:02):

So I did an experiment where I drained the beans and I took a cup of beans with their liquid and ate them cold to see what would happen. And then I drained the beans and washed them and replaced that amount of liquid by volume with water and ate them. Really big difference.

Ben Grynol (06:26):

Wow.

Paul Canales (06:26):

Radical difference. Now, it would’ve been easier just to take the liquid and drink it and then drink water. But I didn’t think of that until after I did the experiment. So that was one. Another thing is I learned about, again, through Levels, through your little tips that you give us, about resistant starch. Now that’s a concept I had no idea about. So I started taking things that I might want to eat and see what would happen if I treated them with resistant starch. So there was… I used whole grain farro, for example. And then I did things with sweet potatoes and regular potatoes and chickpea pasta.

Paul Canales (07:08):

What would happen if I cooked it and ate it? And then what would happen if I cooked it and then let it sit overnight and then did it? So kind of playing with resistant starches and then seeing the impacts of that. An interesting, curious thing that came up about that had to do with dosage. So this is probably something I see this a lot on the Levels Facebook page and dosage is kind of something we don’t think about. Like, “Oh, I’m golden, I’m bulletproof. I did this to this thing.” Well, if you eat a whole bunch of it kind of doesn’t matter. You may not get a spike, but you’re going to get elevated blood glucose. So I started playing around a lot from a culinary perspective of how to treat these starches. And in some cases, it just doesn’t matter.

Paul Canales (08:00):

So for example, if I make sushi at home and I cook sushi rice, you don’t want to cool it overnight and bring it back. It won’t come back. It doesn’t do that. So there’s kind of no way to fix sushi rice, for example. But if you cook say basmati rice overnight and then you make something where you’re sauteing it with, say, some cumin seeds and you’re going to make a cool little biryani thing, or maybe some Spanish rice, it works pretty well. But again, for me personally, it’s dosage. So I start thinking about that and at that time I’m doing this, my restaurant is closed due to the pandemic. So I’m thinking about what am I doing to people and how can I manage it? Well, in Spanish cuisine, it’s pretty easy for the most part because you don’t have a lot of pastas or built in starches that you can’t… There’s nothing I can’t control.

Paul Canales (08:57):

I don’t have any pre-made sauces or things that are coming in that I don’t know that there’s hidden sugars or 20 ingredients all have -drin at the end that I don’t know what they are. But there are things… I mean, you can’t make paella without rice. So what can I do with that? Could I precook that and make it work? I couldn’t really and have it be good. But what I did start doing is doing a resistant farro paella. And it’s brilliant. So now that’s on the menu and it’s offered all the time. So if somebody does want to deal with their glucose and have more fiber, because polished rice does not have the aleurone layer, it doesn’t have the bran, it doesn’t have any of that stuff that kind of helps you.

Paul Canales (09:49):

So you are going to get a kaboom. Or at least I would. [crosstalk 00:09:51] people don’t. And certainly a year ago, I would’ve gotten a much bigger kaboom than I get now. And again, it comes back to dosage. You know, if you need a whole paella or split a paella with somebody, it’s going to be different than if you have some. Or what order you eat your meal in, that’s a big deal. So I started playing around with some of this stuff. There are these things we have, patatas bravas. And they’re brilliant. But if I cook the potato a day ahead, which kind of works in my system anyway, and then I fry them, not ideal to be frying food, but you know, it’s patatas bravas are that way. So I did an experiment.

Paul Canales (10:31):

What happens if I cook those potatoes same day and then cook them? Or if I cook them overnight? Well, one they’re better crispy, fluffy in the inside potato if I do it a day ahead. My blood glucose was quite a bit different if I did it the next day. Now it’s not night and day, I’m still going to get elevation… And dosage, it keeps coming back to dosage. So can I enjoy that? Well, sure. I can if I preload some fiber and maybe have some vinegar and water before. And I order my meal in a proper way, but if I just go cold into some patatas bravas, I’m going to have a problem. So it really affected… I almost had a little bit of a funny breakdown, Ben, as a chef of what am I doing?

Paul Canales (11:16):

You know, what am I doing to people? And how can I be conscious of that? And people want fried food. People want dessert. You know, there are things I can do, but there are ways of maneuvering some things now, like for example, with Big Bold Health coming out with their Himalayan tartary buckwheat. So I have a good relationship with them and I’ve started making things like blinis, little pancakes made with Himalayan tartary buckwheat and almond flour that people are insane for. So I started doing things like that. I just did one, I’ll show you a picture. Let’s see if I can get it on my phone and we can cut this out if you don’t like it.

Ben Grynol (11:54):

No, keep it in.

Paul Canales (11:56):

I did a cool thing yesterday that if you can see… What you see here on the top picture is a slurry of Himalayan tartary buckwheat. And what you see below is a pigeon sauce. So basically I deglaze the fat off of that pigeon sauce after making it, mixed it with the Himalayan tartary buckwheat to make a roux. And then I thickened the sauce with that. So I didn’t have to use a modified starch like arrowroot or potato starch or whatever, nor did I have to make a roux with white flour. You could drink that all day long and your body’s going to say, “Collagen. Protein.” It, it better than bone broth. And I’ve got all this fiber from the Himalayan tartary buckwheat and no spike. So now I’m making braise, dusting with Himalayan tartary buckwheat instead of white flour in the restaurant.

Ben Grynol (12:53):

Interesting.

Paul Canales (12:53):

So there are things like that are just kind of fun that I’m bringing into the restaurant. And yeah, so I’m constantly thinking about food and how can I… If I’m going to blow somebody up, they’re going to know it. It’s going to be a pots de creme and they’re going to blow up. I mean, but hopefully they’ve eaten enough. And as you know, from working with Levels, if you eat dessert after your meal makes sense, you have a better chance especially if it’s got a good amount of fat in there and things like that. But if not you’re probably going to have an elevated issue and we’ll deal with it from there. Yeah, sorry. To answer your one question in a super long way, it’s all consuming and it’s super exciting. It’s really fun to see where I am a year later from when I started to where I was because I was not in any kind of shape, you know?

Ben Grynol (13:48):

So as you’ve been down this path of, we’ll call it rediscovery, right? Like sort of rediscovering what it sounds like your relationship with food and the way you’re thinking about pairing all these different elements, fat and fiber and starch and protein. When you’ve been getting this insight, have you been passing it along to your team and then patrons of the restaurant so that they’re getting some foundation of like, “Hey, we’re changing the paella. We’re changing the way that we cook. We’re offering these different dishes.” You can still have even, let’s say, bravas, right? So the way that we used to cook them is this way, let’s say it’s for your team. We used to cook them where it was just like day of and now we’re doing it overnight so we can get a bit of that resistance starch and it’s not perfect, but it’s better than whatever. And then also being able to educate people, “Hey, if you do want to have patatas bravas, like pair it with some fat or some fibers, some protein so that you can blunt the spike of it. Has that come into play this idea of education, we’ll call it education without pontification?

Paul Canales (14:54):

Yeah. And another way to say it is attraction rather than promotion but that’s exactly right. I love education without pontification because that even is more succinct in my world. So when I first started with Levels, as I mentioned, we were closed and I was doing things for World Central Kitchen, meals for underserved communities in Oakland. And the person that was helping me a couple days a week was my pastry chef. And she has type two diabetes. And her family has this. They’re from Mexico. They’re not eating their indigenous diet. They’re eating heavily processed imported foods into their world. So they have a lot of issues with that and her family particularly. So here I am, she’s wondering what I’m doing with my phone on my arm.

Paul Canales (15:45):

So I tell her about it and I start to explain what’s happening and she’s her eyes get huge. So that was my first kind of educational moment. Well then when we opened, some of my cooks are with me. And this is now fast forward over a year, because I didn’t get open until June of 2021. So I had been working on several of these changes and insights. So I started talking to my team about it right away. And two of the guys that are my chefs now came back after being gone for three years. So they have no idea what’s going on. And so they’re like, why are we doing that? And why are we doing this? So I’m educating them. And then with the buckwheat that happened in the middle of 2021, so they already saw that being brought in and now they love it.

Paul Canales (16:42):

They’re totally excited and experimenting as is my pastry chef with taking white flour out and how much buckwheat can you add back in? Or how much can you deal with almond flour so that we can do this stuff? How much can we work with fat in dessert so that we’re trying to blunt some of those spikes. And then also educating our server staff. So yeah. And they want to know why are we making a farro paella? Why would we do that? Well, there’s a reason why we do that. And so, yeah, so we’re absolutely talking about that. And several people have been interested in Levels because of it actually, because they’re intrigued by it. And now they see me doing it again. So they’re well aware of how the CGM has affected my eating and what I do. And they, they sort of die when we do a paella tester and I load it up with things.

Paul Canales (17:36):

They’re just like, what are you doing? So I always taste it first because we do testers every day of everything. Not every single dish, but several dishes a day so that we can… It’s kind of like doing your warmup layups if you’re a basketball player, you got to get your shots in. Because your palate’s different, your body chemistry’s different, how you’re wanting salt if you’ve exercised, if you drank, whatever it is, is always different. So I make the cooks do something so they can dial in their palate. Well when it’s a paella tester I always have this funny order and then I’ll taste it as it is and then I’ll do something to make it so it mitigates what it’s going to do to my body. And again, dosage, I’m going to eat just a little bit of it, but they’re always fascinated by that. So yeah, it does get out and I talk to the servers about it and so it is a conversation that we have. Now I haven’t put anything on the menu that says glucose friendly or something because actually, as it turns out, most things are for the most part are not going to do that to your blood. But there are items that will definitely do that. Yeah. But we definitely educate.

Ben Grynol (18:43):

How have you thought about things? So as a creative, as a designer, as a chef like that, I mean, that’s essentially what you’re doing. You’re creating, you’re designing dishes. You’re thinking through these things. There’s certain elements of food that are harder to get around. That being things like texture, that being things like flavor profile, that being things like mouth feel. So let’s use the example of sushi rice. The mouth feel, the texture, the flavor profiles much different than something like cauliflower rice. You can extrapolate this to paella when you’re talking about using buckwheat and changing that. How have you thought about trying to maintain certain things? Because sometimes it seems that, again it’s not to generalize and say everyone thinks this, but sometimes people will say, I just can’t get my mind around, we’ll say, it was a risotto that was made with cauliflower rice.

Paul Canales (19:36):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (19:36):

I just can’t get my mind around it. It’s a cauliflower. It doesn’t absorb properly. It just feels saucy.

Paul Canales (19:42):

Right. Just don’t make it. Just don’t make that. So here’s my thing. So let’s see, I’d love that you brought this up. So in the case of, for example, one thing I didn’t tell you, I eliminated bread service.

Ben Grynol (19:55):

Ah, interesting.

Paul Canales (19:56):

So there’s no bread at your table before you eat. You can’t get it here. We don’t offer it. We do use bread in a dish. We do have a bun on a hamburger, but we have an option if you don’t want that. We have rice in the paella, but you can’t order bread to start your meal. There is no bread service because what is the worst thing that you could possibly do to yourself when sitting down to eat?

Ben Grynol (20:22):

Start with bread.

Paul Canales (20:25):

My wife will say… When I started with Levels, my breakfast would be the most delicious one inch thick, grilled or toasted sourdough. Artisan made, organic flour, all the right stuff. And I read somewhere that sourdough has a lower… What’s the word?

Ben Grynol (20:45):

Glycemic index.

Paul Canales (20:47):

Glycemic load. Yeah. Index and load. It’s alive, my brother. It’s alive. So Mary would see me eat this slathered with peanut butter or avocado. And she’d say, “There you go. You’re having a pound of roux.” This is before Levels, right? So I see it and I’m like, holy God, I can’t do that. So then I come to learn all the other things we’ve talked about. So I eliminated bread service. But let’s just talk about, say, cauliflower rice or sushi or whatever. So full disclosure I’ve been in recovery for almost 30 years. I don’t drink non-alcoholic beer. It tastes like garbage to me. I don’t need to drink beer. I don’t need to drink non-alcoholic beer. I don’t need to drink non-alcoholic wine. So guess what? I just don’t drink it. I don’t care because it’s no good. And it doesn’t do in my body what I want beer and wine to do.

Paul Canales (21:39):

Given my particular set of genetics that really likes that and likes the effect of it. Okay so let’s go back to sushi rice. If you love sushi rice and you’re trying to mitigate it, don’t. Just preload, have vinegar. Preload with some… One thing that’s brilliant before sushi actually is a couple handfuls of pumpkin seeds with the shells on them. Because you’re getting some fiber and protein. Maybe drink an ounce or two of olive oil and then have your sushi rice. And then just take the lumps. Don’t eat sushi very often, but eat it. Or have sashimi. Forget it. But if you can’t substitute and get the right effect, just don’t do it. So don’t make risotto. Make a delicious cauliflower. There’s a million things you could do.

Paul Canales (22:33):

You could make amazing cauliflower things that are beyond. But if you need risotto, make risotto once a year or twice a year and just eat it. Do all the things ahead, make sure you’re lifting weights so your muscles are ready to absorb. Do resistance training. Do these things. Go for an hour walk or go for a 20 minute walk right after not even five minutes. That’s what I found. Do not wait. The gold standard is a brisk 20 minute walk, right? I mean, I learned that from you guys. But if you can’t do that, do the dishes, fold laundry, do something, do some squats for 15 minutes or do something to kind of give your body a shot. Just don’t eat cauliflower rice if it’s not good. That’s my personal thing.

Paul Canales (23:24):

And I have that standard. It’s just like, if it’s not dope, I’m not eating it because food is a weird thing. Food is not theoretical. You put it in your mouth and it’s really connected to everything. It goes in here and it’s up here and there’s a pleasure and all that. So if it’s not dope, if it’s not delicious, just don’t eat it.

Ben Grynol (23:44):

Yeah.

Paul Canales (23:45):

That’s kind of the key. I mean, I’ve learned everything I need to learn from an Oreo. You know what I’m saying? I don’t need to relearn that lesson.

Ben Grynol (23:51):

Yeah.

Paul Canales (23:52):

If my wife is making a delicious cookie and it’s warm, I might try to have that once in a while.

Ben Grynol (23:59):

Yeah. And food is relatively, we’ll use air quotes, relatively subjective, right? Like you can’t really say, I mean, there are things that are objectively bad. Like you can just have dishes that are objectively not going to be good. Somebody burns something, there’s too much salt, but it’s subjective in the fact, if somebody’s like, I don’t really like that and it’s because it’s got olives or basil, it’s got something in it. It’s subjective. You can’t say it’s good or bad. And so that’s where it gets interesting. But curious to go into this idea of you’re around food all the time as a chef. You have to be tasting things or you have people that are tasting things, but that is a dichotomy in every sense with the lifestyle choice of fasting that’s something that you took on.

Ben Grynol (24:51):

So when you’re around all this food and your role is to taste this food before it’s going out and especially when you’ve got featured dishes, things like that are new. How have you thought about that where you’ve… It seems like fasting was one of those things that really made a meaningful change in your life from what I know of the experience you had with it. But you sort of had to make this choice of I’m going to fast. I’m going to do it regularly, but I’m around food all the time. What did that look like?

Paul Canales (25:21):

Right. So that’s a brilliant question and I’m glad you mentioned it because people should know, and I see it on the Facebook page and I’ve got to start engaging more. After about a month and a half, I want to say, or two months with Levels, I just couldn’t get a breakthrough. I was too insulin resistant without knowing it. I was too overweight, whatever it was, I could not get the breakthrough. So I did a weekend of 24 hour fasting where I ate Friday night, six o’clock or whatever, five o’clock, 5:30, and I didn’t eat again until Saturday night at 5:30. And then I did it again to Sunday. And then Monday things calmed down for the first time. I started seeing that more stable thing that you’re looking for. So then I started… So now I do that at the end of every month or beginning of every month. But then I started getting into 12 hour and then 16 hour.

Paul Canales (26:24):

Now I’m doing 18 hour. So the key is to build my time when I need to be tasting food into those six hours. Pretty easy for me. So again, it starts with awareness and kind of paying attention to what you’re putting in your mouth. So you’ve got to look at your mindfulness and this goes into meditation and you know, all those things, kind of being aware of what you’re doing and noticing when you’re really hungry and when you’re not really hungry. That’s how you get from regulating to 12 to 16 to 18 if you want to do that. Well it works differently for everybody, but it requires a great deal of mindfulness because oftentimes you’re dehydrated when you think you’re hungry or you’re bored or there’s something like that. But here it’s just lazy habit. There’s food around and you’re looking at it, you’re making something.

Paul Canales (27:18):

So like for example, yesterday, I showed you that pigeon sauce. I’ve got to make that in the morning. And I’m going to taste it as I go, but again, I’m not going to do anything there that’s going to impact my fast. I mean, there’s some caloric value to less than a teaspoon of tasting that, but it’s nothing that’s going to really impact anything. And there’s nothing there that’s carbohydrate that’s really going to mess me up. Anything that’s going to get into that part of the day, for me, I’ve built into my schedule at work. So testers always come up at 4:30 in the restaurant. Well that’s well within my window. So I’m going to, before I do those testers, I’m going to drink a big glass of water with a tablespoon of apple cider vinegar in it. I might pop a handful of pumpkin seeds and then I’m going to do that.

Paul Canales (28:11):

So there is this… And oftentimes most of what’s coming up is not going to be an impactor. But sometimes like yesterday we did in arroz negro, it’s a black rice and there’s a dessert tester. I had already tasted that so I don’t need to taste that again. But I’m going to have some of that black rice so it’s back to that thing we spoke about earlier about how am I going to pair it, what’s the dosage. I just need to taste it. I don’t need to make a meal out of it. And that’s a big difference for me. So it really has to do with scheduling my fasting, my timing, around the time of day where I’m going to have to taste things that normally I might not be eating. So that’s really important. So if, for example, if it’s a birthday and there’s going to be, whatever, one of my kids or I’m at a family get together and there’s going to be something like that, I’m going to work my fast so that it’s in my eating period and I have the opportunity to preload, which again, I learned from you guys.

Paul Canales (29:13):

I never even knew that term. It’s brilliant. So I can preload and blunt that spike. But if I walk into it hungry and I don’t have anything in my stomach, I’m dead. Even with eating dinner before. But oftentimes eating dinner at someone else’s house, for example, there’s going to be a corn salsa. There’s kind of no way. I mean, you could if you wanted to be significant about it, but this happens only a few times a year. So usually I’ll participate in whatever people are making. I don’t have a lot of endothelial problems or Celiac or gut problems that would cause me… Any diseases that, where if I ate something, I would really be in trouble. Dairy allergy or anything like that. Just don’t eat a lot of it. So for me, it’s more of an indulgence.

Paul Canales (30:04):

But to get the fasting, I really work within the hours I’m eating and build my day around my work schedule so that I’m doing that. Like for example, yesterday, there were probably 10 things I could have tasted, tried, enjoyed that would’ve been fast breakers if I decided to do it. Didn’t need to, wasn’t part of my creative day, it wasn’t part of my responsible day to taste things. You just don’t do it.

Ben Grynol (30:31):

So here’s a question for you as the chef of a restaurant: this idea of people say they get on this health and wellness journey. So you’ve got such an interesting lens because like you are the member, but you’re also the person that serves food to the members. And this challenge comes up very frequently when we talk to different members or just anybody who’s going through Levels or trying to change their lifestyle choices and habits. And they say, “Well, everything’s going great. Like I’m at home, I’ve got it dialed in. I know what I’m making. I can control that.” And then there’s this sense of, we’ll call it maybe ambiguity is a good word or feeling maybe a little bit overwhelmed to go out because the lens is, “Well, I just don’t know what the restaurant’s going to make. I don’t know what all the things are made with.”

Ben Grynol (31:31):

And the same thing goes to your example of like eating corn salsa. You go to somebody’s house, they serve dinner. What’s sort of your lens on that? Do you have any advice for people that are thinking about how can I maintain the path I’m on and still eat out at restaurants? Is it about choice or is it about giving yourself the wiggle room and saying it’s okay. Like, do it. Kind of like the paella example or risotto, I think you said.

Paul Canales (31:59):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (32:00):

Where you’re like just do it, do it a couple times a year. Just don’t crush paella, don’t crush risotto four times a week. That’s not going to do you any good.

Paul Canales (32:09):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (32:09):

What are your lens for people, your advice as a chef and as a member?

Paul Canales (32:14):

Well, I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you exactly what I do because I eat in my own restaurant and I will blow myself up occasionally. Or we go out and eat. We don’t go to, we don’t eat a lot just as full disclosure. I’m not really a foodie in the sense that I’ve got to eat at the latest new restaurant and all of that, because actually that kind of, you mentioned as a creative, you have to be really careful to manage your creativity by not eating in restaurants at your caliber, because you’ll end up copying no matter what you do.

Ben Grynol (32:43):

Mm.

Paul Canales (32:44):

I see guitars in the background. So I just recorded a couple of albums and I will not… One was a reggae album and one was a punk album. And I didn’t listen for the last six months to either of those while I was writing, because otherwise I’m going to end up ripping off Bob Marley or do whatever.

Paul Canales (32:59):

So the point is there are two ways to approach it. One is you’re going to go and you’re going to make the best choices. So you’re going to see… Let’s say you go to a Thai restaurant. You can figure out by looking at the menu and also talking to your server what kind of sugars might be in things? Pad Thai is obviously rice noodles. But you can kind of work your way around because it’s a pretty fresh cuisine. It’s a pretty fresh cuisine. And if you’re going to get a little bit of sugar in a vinegar or something, it’ll be pretty small. So let’s say in that your strategy might be, you’re doing all the things you’re supposed to be doing. So we’re eating properly, we’re exercising properly, but you’re going out. So let’s say you’re going to you’re going to be careful and it’s not a splurge night.

Paul Canales (33:57):

So there are two things. One is your regular going out and you’re going to choose. So make the best choices you can and don’t be afraid to ask questions. You don’t have to be sort of militant and say, “Is there any sugar in anything?” I mean, that’s kind of impossible, but you can make choices and you can kind of arrange your meal so you’re eating a mango salad or you’re eating something beforehand, you get into your other thing. So you sort of try to set that up and a handful of pumpkin seeds or some vinegar before is not going to hurt you. So that’s a good way to do it. You’re making choices around… When I come to my own restaurant sometimes, if my wife wants to split a Duende burger, I’ll probably have that bun, but I’m going to skip the chips on the side and I’m going to ask for a bigger arugula salad in my own restaurant.

Paul Canales (34:52):

They know I’ll do this. Or I’ll make sure whatever I’m eating before if there are patatas bravas on the table, I might have one or two chunks of potato, but that’s going to be it. Because I’m choosing in that model. Let’s take option number two. And the classic one is Thanksgiving dinner. But let’s say you’re going out to a meal like that where you’re going to a pre fixe dinner somewhere, you’re not really in control of your meal. It’s an 11 course tasting menu. There’s dessert. Or you’re going to Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas dinner or something where there are these trigger foods. Unless you have health issues, and I can’t speak to that, I mean, do everything you can do to set yourself up and remember everything you’re doing hopefully you’re getting some level of metabolic flexibility.

Paul Canales (35:46):

Hopefully you’re not so rigid in your diet that when you do eat a carbohydrate of some sort, you’re not losing your mind. So I think it’s important. And again, Peter Attia talks about this. Like when he has somebody go in for a glucose test, like the Coca-Cola test, we make sure they eat some carbs before because if they’re on a super low carb diet or not eating any their scores, they lose their mind. So he is got to kind of get them set up a little bit, some of his own patients. So it’s kind of interesting that to have some metabolic flexibility. Your article recently on the paleo diet was really brilliant. So eat some beans without the juices and make sure you’re getting that metabolic flexibility so hopefully when you go to Thanksgiving dinner, it won’t be as bad as if you walked in never eating a carbohydrate. and now you’re having mashed potatoes and gravy that’s thickened with flour and candied yams or whatever are around.

Paul Canales (36:44):

So if you are going to a meal like that, then I think if you’re doing everything you’re doing, give yourself a couple days ahead where you are introducing some things that maybe will bring you up a little bit and back down so your body knows, and it’s not so crazy. Resistance training. Weights to keep your muscles. Eating glucose, that’s very important. And then when you go do the things ahead that you know you should do and then enjoy the damn Thanksgiving dinner or enjoy the tasting menu. And then the next day eat something. Don’t fast too much because I think fasting long right after something like that, there’s a tendency to want to, I’ve been bad, be good now and don’t eat for a day.

Paul Canales (37:26):

I don’t think people recommend that. I think you want to eat, get back to your normal thing, eat a little less and give your body a chance to kind of come back to normal. And everybody’s different. For me, if I did that a year ago, I would’ve stayed at this plateau quite a bit higher and it might’ve taken a couple days to get back down and I would’ve eaten less and more carefully, but well within my boundaries. Now when that happens, it probably would go up and down and I’d be back to stable within a day no problem.

Ben Grynol (37:59):

Yeah, the idea of indulging-

Paul Canales (38:01):

Oh, and one more thing just to remember is, it’s easy to lose your mind when you first get Levels and even for a while because you’re looking at it all the time. And really what you guys have stressed and the Oura Ring stresses other people, you really want to look at variability over time. And if you can’t, you’re not going to, because insulin is so impossible to get a regular thing on because of the washing and all the things that has to happen to it. A reasonable assay is your glucose variability over time and you get that with Levels. So when you’re looking at that variability, remember that one meal is not going to change everything. So over the last couple months or 90 days, you look at your variability and you’re feeling pretty solid, that meal’s not that big of a deal anymore. So sorry to interrupt you, Ben.

Ben Grynol (38:53):

No, not at all. It’s the idea of… We say this and stress it over and over and over is, we never want people to feel a sense of deprivation, right? Indulge in the, like you said, indulge in going out, indulge in having the Thanksgiving meal and that’s entirely okay. One way of mitigating it is this idea of quantity that you brought up earlier, is it’s maybe don’t have four heaping scoops of potatoes and then the yams and then the stuffing. Have some moderation in the amount, in the quantity, because that makes such a big difference where even if you are going to eat something that has a higher glycemic index, and again, everybody is totally different based on metabolic flexibility and and and, but the idea of how long that response can last for, right?

Ben Grynol (39:50):

Some people have elevated glucose for so long after having something that has a higher load. There might be oscillation, there might not be. Some people will have all different shapes to the line, but it’s the idea of no matter what you do, if you are going to indulge, it’s the idea of getting back to what you’re saying about having patatas bravas. It’s like not crushing. It’s very easy as a human because we can act like dogs with a bowl of food in front of us sometimes where it’s like give four plates of those. And it’s just so easy to keep going because those, especially those, like you use the adjective brilliant, which they entirely are, but it’s like have a few of them indulge in that, but don’t eat four plates of them in one sitting by themselves sort of naked, because it’s just not going to help you.

Paul Canales (40:35):

So you just triggered on two things and then I’m going to tell you something insane. You may know this, you may not.

Ben Grynol (40:40):

Okay.

Paul Canales (40:40):

But what you just said about mitigating… So let’s say you have… And you mentioned glycemic load different than glycemic index, right? So let’s say you’re you’re eating something with a high glycemic index. Can you lower the load by adding fiber in the context of what you’re eating? So let’s say, we’ll go back to a burger. You know, you’re eating a burger instead of a burger and fries and all of that. What if you had a salad right before you ate your burger and you piled up some arugula and you kind of made a glycemic load with your bun different than the glycemic index with the bun would’ve been, that’s another way to do it. And then to get to your point about dosage or amount, this is a crazy thing. And it’s a hundred percent true on your palate. After three bites, after three bites you lose tremendous amount of sensation on your tongue.

Paul Canales (41:43):

So if you eat three bites of something really delicious and you want to keep going crazy, you are not really tasting as much what you were doing the way you were when you first started. So your first bite of something is delicious. If you slow down and you fully enjoy that, and then you get the next bite and you fully enjoy that. And then the next over time, the next bite, you slow down, you’ll find you don’t need to eat that much of it because your palate has been satisfied. Your hunger, the savory part of it, is satiated. Now whether you’re full or not is what else you’re eating and all of that. But you really don’t need to eat a supersize amount of french fries and they’re not even good after a little while.

Ben Grynol (42:42):

Yeah.

Paul Canales (42:43):

They’re good while they’re hot for a little bit. And then you got to start getting them into the ketchup, which has tons of sugar, or you got to dip them in… You start doing that but a couple fries and you’re done. You’re done. You’re happy. And lettuce wrap the burger and don’t eat dirty keto too often, you know?

Ben Grynol (43:04):

Is that actually a neurological thing, the idea of like your palate and the way that it’s satiated after?

Paul Canales (43:10):

Three bites. Three bites.

Ben Grynol (43:11):

Wow.

Paul Canales (43:11):

Yeah. So it’s really something that’s very important I teach my cooks because when they’re tasting food all the time, your palate gets totally worn out. And you will… Let’s say you make a batch of soup. I’m about to go make some bouillabaisse for a popup dinner next week for a new restaurant that I’m doing that’s coming online next month. So I’m going to be making this soup. So I’m going to be tasting it over and over and over again. Well, absolutely clean your palate between bites. Drink some water. Bubbly water’s even better. You ever notice when you get an espresso, they give you a little side of bubbly water. You ever wonder what that’s for? Its to clean your palate because the carbonation will bubble on your palate and clean it up.

Paul Canales (43:59):

So I always have my cooks taste and drink water during their shift because one, if they’re not hydrated, they’re going to think they want more salt in everything or they’re going to be hungry. And that’s a disaster. And your palate is much more sensitive when you’re full than when you’re hungry. You’re trying to fill, you’re filling up too many things. All of a sudden you’re making food that’s way too salty. You would’ve no idea because you tasted it too many times. So if I make this bouillabaisse I’m going to taste it, I’m going to clean my palate, I’m going to adjust and then I’ll taste it again. But I have literally ruined five gallons of soup by tasting it too often and it finally tastes right and someone tasted it like, “Oh my God, it’s like a salt lick.” This was early in my career because I tasted it too often.

Paul Canales (44:51):

Yeah, you get worn out. Three bites, man, and slowly, and then you can really enjoy it. And you find out that from a taste perspective, you’ve done well with it. You don’t need to keep going with it. And the same thing happens with sweet food, sweet things. Yeah. I mean, you get to kick the endorphins up, you start losing your mind. Your body kicks into that thing. But if you slow down and you really taste it and really savor it and make every bite a meditation as my cousin LeeLee says, the next thing you know, you’re pretty happy with a nice little reasonable scoop of mashed potatoes and gravy and the things that might send you insane because you don’t need that much of it.

Ben Grynol (45:35):

Yeah, and salt is a one way door decision, as it would be known, where it’s not one of those things where you can undo salt.

Paul Canales (45:42):

At all.

Ben Grynol (45:43):

It’s like cooking meat. Cooking meat is a one way door decision. Once it’s cooked, you can’t uncook it.

Paul Canales (45:49):

And from a culinary point of view, it’s really important. Salt concentrates. You can’t cook it off. Same thing with acid. So if you make a precipitant of acid in a solution, it doesn’t go anywhere. So if you adjust something with vinegar or you adjust something with wine when you’re cooking. You reduce it, it’s going to concentrate. It doesn’t lose. Same thing with salt, it concentrates. Great example is when you’re making a braise, if you’re braising lamb shanks or something at home, for the home cooks. Taste but learn to season, but understand that when you taste that salinity in the broth as you’re cooking it, you’re going to reduce that down to get that suave coating, that delicious flavor. So you only want half the amount of salt in your mouth. Learn what that tastes like because you’re going to reduce it by half. So yeah, you’re exactly right. These are precipitants. You can’t lose it. You can’t. And then you get into that problem of, oh God, do I make more of it? One trick if you do that with a soup, throw a couple potatoes into it and it will kill the salt, but now you just jacked your glycemic.

Ben Grynol (46:57):

Let’s go into this last thought of, as you have reestablished a new relationship with food, have you started to explore new categories or new cuisine types, sort of outside of the restaurant? Just as a creative, like as a creative professional, as a person in the world, have you looked at food differently where it’s made you maybe more creative in the lens of the way that you are going about, I don’t know, try to pair things together?

Paul Canales (47:27):

I just had this conversation with my wife yesterday. She had this great idea for lunch on Sunday. It was brilliant. It was basically we made a salmon salad, all the good stuff in it and put it into romaine lettuce boats. And that was lunch and it was delicious. So we had some salmon salad leftover and I made some and is on my Levels. I got a 10 out of 10 yesterday. Thank God. But it was the salmon salad. And instead of having boats, I made opposing layers of the lettuce. So I had sandwiches. So I had a couple of salmon sandwiches, salmon salad sandwiches with lettuce. And as I was leaving the house, I said to my wife, wow. I said in the old days that would’ve been a couple slabs of roux, of delicious artisan made organic sourdough, or I would’ve wrapped it all up in a tortilla.

Paul Canales (48:25):

So you mentioned other cuisines. So yeah. So for example, I love Mexican food. I’m in California. We eat a lot of it. So we have converted a burrito, a big burrito into burrito bowls, and the burrito bowls are the way we eat it. And if we do have a chip, it might be a chip or two that we’re eating. But yeah, so we’ve reconsidered all that stuff. If we make a stir fry, I’ve tried shirataki noodles and shirataki rice. I love them. My wife does not like them. They’re too squeaky for her. My kid… Well, now my kids are older, but they didn’t love the texture of them. So we just make a stir fry and we kind of don’t seem to need to make the rice. So exploring all these cuisines where there is something that we want to avoid or something we’re not really into and it’s not really essential.

Paul Canales (49:24):

You kind of don’t need a burrito bowl with a ton of rice and you don’t need it with corn and you don’t really need it with a bunch of refried beans for sure. Because that’s going to blow you up right there. I mean, you’ve just now made a dosage of this into a dosage of that, even though it’s the same amount because you’ve smashed it all together. So these things are all able to be done. But yeah, I find myself exploring all this stuff constantly and looking for ways. One great thing is my wife started the whole pound of roux thing when I would make pasta home. She’d say, “God, I feel like I just ate a pound of roux.” And I’m just like chowing this pasta. This is before Levels, of course.

Paul Canales (50:11):

So now I’ll make this Himalayan tartary buckwheat pancake in a larger format, say like that and serve the ragout on top of that or a braise instead of with mashed potatoes or something. And you get something to sop up the juices and it’s delicious. So yeah, there’s a lot of exploration into other cuisines. How can I use monkfruit syrup? Monkfruit maple syrup is actually pretty good in the place of brown sugar in Thai cooking. It’s pretty good as a sweetener if you need a little bit of sweetening. So I like the maple syrup better than the straight monkfish, sorry not monkfish, monkfruit syrup, because it is not as sweet and it kind of has a little better balance of flavor from a culinary perspective for me. But yeah, so there’s a lot of exploration into other cuisines and things and then finding what is the issue and then eliminating it.

Ben Grynol (51:07):

Very, very cool. You got to try it. You got to get on the cauliflower egg fried rice if you’re making Asian cuisine.

Paul Canales (51:15):

Yeah, I will.

Ben Grynol (51:16):

It’s good. It’s really good. Oh, it’s great. Do it all the time. It’s great.

Paul Canales (51:20):

Yeah.

Ben Grynol (51:21):

The texture and the mouth feel everything about it is good. You still get… Especially because that dish, typically the rice in that dish is typically pretty broken apart. Like there are so many elements to it that you don’t from a texture standpoint, from a mouth feel, and then from a flavor profile, it’s pretty darn close. It’s a pretty good substitute.

Paul Canales (51:45):

So do you saute your cauliflower ahead to really dry it out?

Ben Grynol (51:51):

Well, we buy the pre-ground cauliflower rice.

Paul Canales (51:55):

Yeah, from Trader Joe’s or something? Is it cooked?

Ben Grynol (51:57):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Canales (52:00):

It’s cooked, right?

Ben Grynol (52:00):

Yeah. It’s just it’s cooked and then frozen.

Paul Canales (52:03):

Let me give you a cool tip. So I’ve done this. I made a cauliflower pizza dough for Big Bold Health and they used that. And I found when I first did it following the general recipes is it was really mushy and it wasn’t perfect. So one of the keys to fried rice is you cook the rice a day ahead. You don’t use same day rice and you let it dry out and it gets kind of crumbly, not crumbly, but it breaks up and it’s kind of hard and weird and then you saute it and then you make the fried rice. That’s the trick. So I did something similar to what you’re talking about. I did make fried rice. I made like this Middle Eastern rice with cauliflower rice and it was brilliant, but I sauteed it quite a bit and dried it out quite a bit before I started adding the other ingredients and it had a really great texture. It wasn’t in any kind of soft. It actually was kind of crunchy in a way. And it worked out really well. So sauteing the cauliflower rice ahead of time. Do you thaw it out when you use it?

Ben Grynol (53:10):

Some, it depends on the dish.

Paul Canales (53:13):

I’ve only done it with… I’ll break it up and start sauteing it from frozen. And it’s amazing. It’s brilliant. Just a little bit of either olive oil or avocado oil or something. It’s really brilliant. And your saute, saute, saute and get a light caramelization. Then when you start, it’s obviously not going to reabsorb everything and that does have a wonderful flavor, but I haven’t made fried rice with it. I need to do that.

Ben Grynol (53:35):

You have to do it. There’s your weekend project right there.

Paul Canales (53:38):

Yes, I will absolutely do it because I’ve been dying for some fried rice.

Ben Grynol (53:41):

Looks like you’re in the restaurant right now?

Paul Canales (53:51):

Yeah, I am.

Ben Grynol (53:52):

I haven’t been to the restaurant and I don’t live in the bay area but it looks like you’re on a loft.

Paul Canales (53:59):

Yeah. I’m in the mezzanine. Exactly.

Ben Grynol (54:00):

There you go. There you go. Look at that.