#113 – Eat or Pass with Dr. Casey Means (Seeds & Nuts, Wild vs. Farmed Salmon, Dirty 12 vs. Clean 15)

Navigating the world of organic food is tricky. Which foods should always be organic, and which ones can you compromise on? The answer is that there’s rarely a clear yes-or-no answer to the problem. In this episode Levels Head of Growth Ben Grynol and Chief Medical Officer Dr. Casey Means discuss if certain foods are an “Eat or Pass.” They cover seeds and nuts, wild salmon vs. farmed salmon, as well as the Dirty Dozen and the Clean 15.

02:01 – Ultimatums aren’t necessary

Ben said that while there are general guidelines for eating organic, sometimes it’s okay to eat things people say to avoid. You just have to be mindful of which ones and how often.

We wanted to dig into some of these ideas of things like roasted pumpkin seeds versus raw ones, things like farmed salmon versus wild-caught, and even some of the insights around The Dirty Dozen versus The Clean 15, that being the fruits and vegetables that people should eat, and they should avoid. We really wanted to provide more insight around whether or not it’s okay for people to eat things. And the takeaway is, in many cases, it’s okay to eat a lot of things that people say, “Don’t eat at all,” when it comes to whole food, but there’s always better alternatives. The idea is to not talk about things in absolutes. The idea is to provide more insight around some of the thoughts when people can start to change their diet and lifestyle habits to optimize their metabolic health.

03:30 – Unroasted is the way to go

Dr. Casey said not to consume seed oil that has been cooked at high temperatures, which means you should avoid things like roasted pumpkin seeds if possible.

Hot take is that we really, rarely want to ever eat seed oil that have been cooked at high temperatures or really ever. We know they have omega-6 fats. We know that high heat, during roasting, can actually make those fats more damaging, create more oxidative stress in the body. So, as you said, raw, unroasted, always better. If you are on a road trip, in an airport, in a gas station, and there are literally no options of what to eat, and it’s the option between chips or cookies or roasted, salted pumpkin seeds, I’d say, go for the pumpkin seeds. You’re going to get more nutrients with something like pumpkin seeds because you’re going to get the magnesium and all the other minerals that are in those seeds, whereas in the cookies or the chips, you’re still going to get those refined seed oils that have been heated, but you’re not going to get nearly as many nutrients. So, it’s probably a better option, but definitely unroasted is the way to go. And if you only like them roasted, something you can do at home is actually roast them at a much lower heat for a little bit of a longer time. And, so, that’s one option.

05:38 – It all comes back to nutrients

Dr. Casey said if it’s a choice between a microwave-ready meal or farmed salmon, go for the farmed salmon. But try to eat less of it and balance your plate with lots of organic veggies.

I think if the decision is between eating an ultra-processed, microwave meal, which is, I’m assuming what the Hungry Man type of meals are, refined grains, ultra-processed oils and cheeses and meats and all of these things, then I think there’s no question that farmed salmon is an upgrade from an ultra-processed, microwave-type dinner meal. Again, it all comes back to nutrients. While it’s not the best choice compared to wild salmon, there still are going to be useful nutrients in that food. There’s going to be vitamins and minerals. There’s of course going to be omega-3 fatty acids. There’s even been research showing that people can improve their omega-3 fatty acid levels by eating farmed salmon. It is not the optimal choice. If you can do it, I think the best possible option is, if you are going to eat salmon, get a very small amount, a couple ounces, of the highest quality salmon, and then fill the rest of your plate with whatever the cheapest organic vegetable you can find is. So, shift the quantities around a little bit. Organic beans are 99 cents a can. So, supplement where you are going to get some of that protein and from the salmon, with beans that are very inexpensive, and try some beans, a very small amount of wild caught salmon, and then whatever the most on sale organic vegetable is. And, so, there are other ways to, I think, be economical about these things, other than just going with the lower quality product.

09:04 – Minimize the toxic burden on your body

Dr. Casey said you don’t want to overburden your body with toxic pesticides, but you also need to consider the collateral damage of certain “healthy” foods.

So, our ultimate goal is to get as many nutrients as we possibly can into the body, to help with our cellular functioning and our optimal health, while minimizing the toxic burden in the body. So, that’s table space. That’s what we want to achieve. And toxic burden can certainly come from pesticides. So, that’s why these lists are really helpful. To make things more complex, we also want to minimize the collateral damage of certain healthy foods. Most unprocessed plant foods are healthy, but some carry with them some collateral, like a really high glucose spike, like with the example that you talked about with corn. So, this creates some complexity, but that’s just our framing for what we ultimately want to achieve. Most nutrients, least collateral damage, least environmental toxic burden.

09:58 – Consider the dose

Dr. Casey said spinach and kale are more nutrient-dense than corn, so eating a non-organic salad every now and then is probably better for you than an organic ear of corn.

Spinach and kale are incredibly nutrient-dense foods with almost no glucose spike. So, it’s like check, check, but they’re on The Dirty Dozen, so they have a higher pesticide load. Ultimately, we’re trying to minimize our body’s total body burden to environmental chemicals that are problematic. So, it’s kind of about dose, and the dose makes the poison. If we could eat all organic all the time, that’s great. But if you’re eating non-organic every once in a while. You’re at a restaurant. It’s not organic. Then I think eating the salad with a ton of spinach and a ton of kale, that’s not going to cause permanent, long-term damage. We have to think about things cumulatively, over time. If I had the choice, personally, between eating a huge salad of non-organic spinach and kale, versus eating two cobs of corn, actually, at this point in my life, I would eat the salad, the non-organic salad, and get all those nutrients from spinach and kale, even though there may be some pesticide burden. And I do what I can to minimize that, like wash the food really well and make sure I’m getting as many other antioxidants and healthful things on that salad.

11:07 – Think strategically

Dr. Casey said the easiest, most cost-effective way to eat organically is to shop what’s on sale. That way you get a variety of products for similar prices as their non-organic alternatives.

The best possible scenario, I think, for people, is to figure out how to eat organically, essentially for the same price as conventional, which I think is totally possible if you’re sort of smart and scrappy about it. The way that I approach it, is that when I go to the grocery store, I am looking for whatever organic foods are on sale. And often, when they’re on sale, they are the same, or lower price, than the conventional food. And, so, I’m looking for highly nutrient-dense plant foods with low glycemic impact, that are on sale. And what that does for you, is that it ends up having you buy things that you might not normally buy, which actually is going to increase the diversity of the food. That’s just one sort of fun tip that I like to give. Another is looking for frozen organic food, which is often cheaper than the fresh version and has just as many nutrients. So, you can buy a large bag of frozen, organic spinach, often for $2.00, $2.50, for a pound of this. And, so, that’s another way to get those nutrients organically, without such a high price tag of the fresh food. So, it’s definitely important to remember that frozen produce has just as much, generally, nutritional value as the fresh counterpoint.

12:24 – Look for the peels

Dr. Casey said that while the Clean 15 list only has 15 items, if an item has a removable peel, that one is safer to eat non-organically.

One other thing to realize on these lists is that there’s some trends you’ll see. The Dirty Dozen is all things without peels. It’s things where the pesticides are going to be sprayed directly on the plant. And many of the things on The Clean 15 have peels, like melons or onions, papaya, pineapple, avocados, things where the outer layer basically has to be taken off to eat it. So, also use that as a general rule. Lemon is not on The Clean 15, but I’m assuming, given how big the rind is, that’s one where you might be able to do non-organic and kind of get away with it. And I don’t know that for sure, but that’s kind of a gestalt that I use. If there’s an outer coating that I can take off, it’s probably safer to eat, from the non-organic perspective.

Transcript

Dr. Casey Means (00:06):

The best possible scenario, I think, for people, is to figure out how to eat organically, essentially for the same price as conventional, which I think is totally possible, if you’re smart and scrappy about it.

Dr. Casey Means (00:20):

The way that I approach it, is that when I go to the grocery store, I am looking for whatever organic foods are on sale. And often, when they’re on sale, they are the same, or lower price, than the conventional food.

Ben Grynol (00:39):

I’m Ben Grynol, part of the early start-up team here at Levels. We’re building tech that helps people to understand their metabolic health, and this is your front-row seat to everything we do. This is a whole new level.

Ben Grynol (01:04):

Often, food is talked about in absolutes. “Only eat this. Never eat that.” Well, one thing that we do is we never want to be prescriptive about exactly what a person should and shouldn’t eat. Diet is very personalized, and it depends on the individual. What we do know is that people should avoid things like highly processed foods. There’s no denying that.

Ben Grynol (01:28):

When it comes to eating well, though, there are things that fall into the category of whole foods or real foods, that being meat or vegetables, fruit, that are okay to eat, but you often hear advice from people, and they say, “You should definitely avoid that.”

Ben Grynol (01:44):

Well, Dr. Casey Means, Chief Medical Officer and Co-founder of Levels, she and I sat down, and we debunked some of these things. And as much as this is not meant to be prescriptive advice, it’s very much her perspective on whether or not you should or shouldn’t eat things.

Ben Grynol (01:58):

We had fun with it, and we called it Eat or Pass. We wanted to dig into some of these ideas of things like roasted pumpkin seeds versus raw ones, things like farmed salmon versus wild-caught, and even some of the insights around The Dirty Dozen versus The Clean 15, that being the fruits and vegetables that people should eat, and they should avoid.

Ben Grynol (02:18):

We really wanted to provide more insight around whether or not it’s okay for people to eat things. And the takeaway is, in many cases, it’s okay to eat a lot of things that people say, “Don’t eat at all,” when it comes to whole food, but there’s always better alternatives.

Ben Grynol (02:34):

The idea is to not talk about things in absolutes. The idea is to provide more insight around some of the thoughts when people can start to change their diet and lifestyle habits to optimize their metabolic health. Here’s where we kick things off.

Ben Grynol (02:51):

So, pumpkin seeds. Right? Seeds, nuts, in general. We know that seeds and nuts, especially something like pumpkin seeds, are high in magnesium. We know they’re good for you. But then you get into this scenario of, “Well, what happens if you eat roasted?” And I’m not talking about flavored and barbecue flavor. That’s just like, “Yeah. Don’t eat that.”

Ben Grynol (03:14):

But you get into roasted pumpkin seeds that are salted. And you look on the back, and it’s like, “Hmm. Roasted in a seed oil.” Is it eat or pass? Is the net benefit of eating pumpkin seeds higher, or is it like, “No, avoid them. They’re in … roasted in seed oil.” What’s your hot take?

Dr. Casey Means (03:30):

Okay. Hot take is that we really, rarely want to ever eat seed oil that have been cooked at high temperatures or really ever. We know they have omega-6 fats. We know that high heat, during roasting, can actually make those fats more damaging, create more oxidative stress in the body. So, as you said, raw, unroasted, always better.

Dr. Casey Means (03:53):

If you are on a road trip, in an airport, in a gas station, and there are literally no options of what to eat, and it’s the option between chips or cookies or roasted, salted pumpkin seeds, I’d say, go for the pumpkin seeds. You’re going to get more nutrients with something like pumpkin seeds because you’re going to get the magnesium and all the other minerals that are in those seeds, whereas in the cookies or the chips, you’re still going to get those refined seed oils that have been heated, but you’re not going to get nearly as many nutrients.

Dr. Casey Means (04:27):

So, it’s probably a better option, but definitely unroasted is the way to go. And if you only like them roasted, something you can do at home is actually roast them at a much lower heat for a little bit of a longer time. And, so, that’s one option.

Ben Grynol (04:41):

Pass, if you have the option of raw versus roasted in a seed oil. Eat, if the alternative is grabbing a bag of chips.

Ben Grynol (04:57):

So, salmon. Next one. This idea of, “Avoid farmed salmon at all costs.” We know there are a ton of challenges with that, but I would assume, I would assume that if somebody is on a journey to health and wellness, and they’re introducing new types of foods into their diet, the alternative being a Hungry Man freezer dinner, is not as good an option as farmed salmon. We know wild-caught’s better. We know all these things.

Ben Grynol (05:24):

But what’s the hot take on that, as far as how bad is farmed salmon, when you start to talk about optimal being wild-caught, farmed being an option. Where does it lie? What’s your hot take on that?

Dr. Casey Means (05:38):

I think if the decision is between eating an ultra-processed, microwave meal, which is, I’m assuming what the Hungry Man type of meals are, refined grains, ultra-processed oils and cheeses and meats and all of these things, then I think there’s no question that farmed salmon is an upgrade from an ultra-processed, microwave-type dinner meal.

Dr. Casey Means (06:07):

Again, it all comes back to nutrients. While it’s not the best choice compared to wild salmon, there still are going to be useful nutrients in that food. There’s going to be vitamins and minerals. There’s, of course, going to be omega-3 fatty acids. There’s even been research showing that people can improve their omega-3 fatty acid levels by eating farmed salmon.

Dr. Casey Means (06:28):

It is not the optimal choice. If you can do it, I think the best possible option is, if you are going to eat salmon, get a very small amount, a couple ounces, of the highest quality salmon, and then fill the rest of your plate with whatever the cheapest organic vegetable you can find is.

Dr. Casey Means (06:50):

So, shift the quantities around a little bit. Organic beans are 99 cents a can. So, supplement where you are going to get some of that protein and from the salmon, with beans that are very inexpensive, and try some beans, a very small amount of wild caught salmon, and then whatever the most on sale organic vegetable is.

Dr. Casey Means (07:10):

And, so, there are other ways to, I think, be economical about these things, other than just going with the lower quality product.

Ben Grynol (07:19):

Hmm. So, it’s not a full pass. It’s understand that there are some benefits to things like farmed salmon, but there are also some challenges, things like higher omega-6, higher environmental toxins, all these things that could go into eating that. And it’s, again, how often are you eating it? And there are all these other factors.

Ben Grynol (07:47):

All right. So, let’s go into the last one. This gets thrown around and floated around very often. The Dirty Dozen versus The Clean 15. And. again, this is where information can be challenging to consume because if you are starting out, and you’re trying to learn, things get talked about in these absolutes. “Avoid The Dirty Dozen at all costs. Only eat The Clean 15.” Right?

Ben Grynol (08:12):

But if you look, and you start to break down certain things, well, kale and spinach are in The Dirty Dozen. Right? But as far as having a high glycemic index, they actually don’t at all. Right? They’re totally fine in that respect.

Ben Grynol (08:26):

And then you look at The Clean 15, and you get something like corn. Well, sure. Corn doesn’t have as many pesticides and toxins in it. The glucose response from corn, and we’re going … We’re benchmarking vegetable against vegetable, as opposed to saying something like, “Pineapples in The Clean 15. Well, that’s also rocket fuel for your glucose levels.”

Ben Grynol (08:44):

So, what’s the hot take on this Dirty Dozen versus Clean 15, when you’re thinking about things like kale, where people talk about, “Oh, it’s got a high level of arsenic.” And then you talk about things like corn, where it’s like, “Well, there aren’t as many pesticides.” What’s your thought on those two things?

Dr. Casey Means (09:03):

So, our ultimate goal is to get as many nutrients as we possibly can into the body, to help with our cellular functioning and our optimal health, while minimizing the toxic burden in the body. So, that’s table [inaudible 00:09:19]. That’s what we want to achieve. And toxic burden can certainly come from pesticides. So, that’s why these lists are really helpful.

Dr. Casey Means (09:24):

To make things more complex, we also want to minimize the collateral damage of certain healthy foods. Most unprocessed plant foods are healthy, but some carry with them some collateral, like a really high glucose spike, like with the example that you talked about with corn.

Dr. Casey Means (09:42):

So, this creates some complexity, but that’s just our framing for what we ultimately want to achieve. Most nutrients, least collateral damage, least environmental toxic burden.

Dr. Casey Means (09:51):

So, with that, we can start to really go, food by food, in these lists. Spinach and kale are incredibly nutrient-dense foods with almost no glucose spike. So, it’s like check, check, but they’re on The Dirty Dozen, so they have a higher pesticide load. Ultimately, we’re trying to minimize our body’s total body burden to environmental chemicals that are problematic.

Dr. Casey Means (10:15):

So, it’s kind of about dose, and the dose makes the poison. If we could eat all organic all the time, that’s great. But if you’re eating non-organic every once in a while. You’re at a restaurant. It’s not organic. Then I think eating the salad with a ton of spinach and a ton of kale, that’s not going to cause permanent, long-term damage. We have to think about things cumulatively, over time.

Dr. Casey Means (10:38):

If I had the choice, personally, between eating a huge salad of non-organic spinach and kale, versus eating two cobs of corn, actually, at this point in my life, I would eat the salad, the non-organic salad, and get all those nutrients from spinach and kale, even though there may be some pesticide burden.

Dr. Casey Means (10:56):

And I do what I can to minimize that, like wash the food really well and make sure I’m getting as many other antioxidants and healthful things on that salad.

Dr. Casey Means (11:07):

The best possible scenario, I think, for people, is to figure out how to eat organically, essentially for the same price as conventional, which I think is totally possible if you’re sort of smart and scrappy about it.

Dr. Casey Means (11:21):

The way that I approach it, is that when I go to the grocery store, I am looking for whatever organic foods are on sale. And often, when they’re on sale, they are the same, or lower price, than the conventional food.

Dr. Casey Means (11:34):

And, so, I’m looking for highly nutrient-dense plant foods with low glycemic impact, that are on sale. And what that does for you, is that it ends up having you buy things that you might not normally buy, which actually is going to increase the diversity of the food.

Dr. Casey Means (11:48):

That’s just one sort of fun tip that I like to give. Another is looking for frozen organic food, which is often cheaper than the fresh version and has just as many nutrients. So, you can buy a large bag of frozen, organic spinach, often for $2.00, $2.50, for a pound of this. And, so, that’s another way to get those nutrients organically, without such a high price tag of the fresh food. So, it’s definitely important to remember that frozen produce has just as much, generally, nutritional value as the fresh counterpoint.

Dr. Casey Means (12:24):

One other thing to realize on these lists is that there’s some trends you’ll see. The Dirty Dozen is all things without peels. It’s things where the pesticides are going to be sprayed directly on the plant.

Ben Grynol (12:36):

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Casey Means (12:36):

And many of the things on The Clean 15 have peels, like melons or onions, papaya, pineapple, avocados, things where the outer layer basically has to be taken off to eat it. So, also use that as general rule.

Dr. Casey Means (12:51):

Lemon is not on The Clean 15, but I’m assuming, given how big the rind is, that’s one where you might be able to do non-organic and kind of get away with it. And I don’t know that for sure, but that’s kind of a gestalt that I use. If there’s an outer coating that I can take off, it’s probably safer to eat, from the non-organic perspective.