#109 – How an app’s design can inspire behavior change & (good or bad) habits (Brett Redinger & Ben Grynol)

In order for a habit to form there has to be a trigger, an action, and a variable reward. But when designing products to help people establish healthy behavior, it gets more complicated than that. In this episode, Levels Head of Growth, Ben Grynol, chatted with our Principal Designer, Brett Redinger, about the various components of behavior change and habit formation and how it all relates to an app’s design.

04:09 – Design for building habits

Brett started out in design because of the art, but he soon got into the behavioral aspect where you’re helping people to build habits.

First it was art and then I got super into the neurology aspect, the behavioral aspect and that’s where I met Nir. One time I reached out to Nir, I read something he wrote and I was like, “Habit is the first step in a three-step process. So your whole book is about step one.” And he was like, “Is this guy…” He’s at Stanford. He was writing Hooked at the time and so we just met up and I’m a big believer in what Nir preaches, but also Nir as a person he’s a great human, we’ve been friends for a long time. And his intention, he’s always wanted people to design better habits. He’s just broke down. He did a great job of getting into the trigger, action, variable reward, being that loop to routine.

12:53 – Bring joy into design

Joy is a powerful reward that can help habits to stick.

I don’t know, maybe you’ve seen a couple things I’ve made so far. They’re they’re not in the app yet, but we’re getting there. But they’re all the little explosions of pixels. They’re little happy faces, they’re little, I have a dancing guy. Can’t wait, I’ll show you the dancing guy. We’ve got you, when you log food we got a guy that’s like you break your record and it’s silly. And a lot of people will, “Wow, we do this.” And it’s because variable reward is the thing in my mind, it’s one of the biggest things that’s overlooked in the prime design process. Because if it’s just like, “Oh, Hey, the little light button popped.”, That’s so multi-variable. “Who liked it?”, “What was it?” There’s so many things about that. And we have these really linear things. What food did you log? What’s your score? So we have to find ways to really bring joy to those moments.

16:05 – Build and hold onto people’s trust

There are dark patterns that you can create to get people to do what you want, but it ruins trust and people will walk away.

And so we constantly, once you have somebody’s trust you’re holding it with such care that you never do those things. So it’s people always, I get hit with dark pattern questions. What are my favorite ones? How do I use them? I’m always like, never, it’s a cheap win. I’m sitting here trying to make you fall in love. It’s like asking you, how do you trick somebody in dating you? It’s like no, I don’t trick them. I’d be me and I’m authentic. I get authenticity goes so much further. Authenticity and honesty goes so much further and makes so much more for you than one of those things. That it’s not even comparable, really.

21:24 – Look at things from the persona’s point of view

In order to design UX well, you have to put yourself in the mindset of the user.

I’m also well aware of these other four, five major group that we designed for. And that focus for me, it’s in every single thing I do. And so I never get to escape it. I would love a day off from having to think about the whole thing. I think what really helps people from a UX perspective and Allen is great at this. Is going from eagle to ant and how well you can context switch from eagle. What are we doing and why? And how, and generally who are we trying to help? And then ant. How is this zoomed down to the detail of how would this reward, or how would this work if I’m this persona? How does this feel? And you’re, so you’re, it’s this insane ADD context switching thing that you have to actually do that’s not negative in life where that’s normally pretty painful for people. It’s really helpful in the product design process, because you have to switch personalities, you got to switch context, you have to constant switch. It’s a multi-variant balancing problem after that.

23:55 – Extrinsic and intrinsic triggers

There are two types of triggers that start a habit loop. For a product, extrinsic ones come first.

When it comes to products, they start from an extrinsic, the world shows you something, an ad gets to you, a friend comes to you and, or an evangelist of a brand is like, “I love this thing. It worked me.” And somebody’s painting a picture for you of a better future of either pain avoidant or pleasure-seeking. Right? “Oh my God, you got to try this food.” That’s not necessarily, you can call it pain avoidant because you’re like, “Ooh, you’re hungry.” Or like, “Ooh you haven’t tried anything new in a while.” Maybe that could link that up that way or just pleasure-seeking like, “Oh my God, this pizza.” Right? And someone that goes my mouth just waters from hearing that, because again, my brain has that pizza enough times. So, but what’s really interesting is these, what I find is these edges. I have this internal trigger, this internal need because I know I don’t feel good. And then you start seeking these rewards or these pathways, they’ll help you be pain avoidant in that way.

28:27 – Motivation is hard to hack

Once there is a trigger, a person still needs to have the motivation to take an action. Sometimes that comes from seeing the reward even once.

So without motivation, which is one of the hardest things to hack in life for some people. Without that, it’s just the thing you’re going to walk around. It’s just a messy room. Right? The underlying mechanism there, is well, first off motivation, but the ability that we’re going to assume that you have the motivation to do it, the ability to get done, what you’re trying to do. So say, when it comes to fitness, all of this, what you have to feel is either you have to back to trigger, you have to hear somebody else be like, “Oh, hey. Ben, oh, you’ve been running a lot and you look great.” So there’s this like, “Oh, I want that compliment.” Right? Or you have to have the experience where you actually got over this hump to work at out once or twice and some part of the universe, whether it’s internal that gave you that, “I ran and I feel good after.” That’s what people don’t get.

29:57 – Investment is a big part of habits

Once someone has invested time, money, or other resources in a habit, it’s hard to quit.

So that’s one of these bigger arcs that we didn’t really cover was investment phase. It’s one of the most important phases in the whole process. Right? Now, I tell people all the time, when they complain about Instagram, I just say, “Delete it. Just delete it. You’re mad, you hate ads, you hate Zuckerberg, just delete it.” And they start to tell me all the reasons they can’t. “Well, it’s got all my photos, but then I would lose…” It’s because you’ve built, you’ve invested and invested and invested and now you’re complaining about your investment, but you could always bail, but nobody does. There’s this, whether you’re extreme biker, once it’s just, once you get that hit and then once you’ve invested, because you can get that hit, then not invest and you can be gone. Without the investment, without stored value. It’s very hard to come back to products, digital products, especially so.

34:41 – Guidance not control

Give people enough guidance to get them going and to get to that place where they start getting the reward.

So people want guidance, but nobody wants to be controlled. Right? So we give them that little bit of guidance to say, let them, but they have to feel not only the reward from what we make and how we communicate. They need to feel the health reward. They need to catch that compliment out in reality. “Oh, I’m, look, you’re ordering that? Oh, I would’ve thought you would ordered this.” Or you need to feel some kind of social validation, some kind of thing out in reality. That’s like, “Oh yeah, this is a better choice.” And that comes to who you’re around and things that are slightly outside of our control. But on our end I’m like boom! Pixel explosion, happy face dance. You just did better than yesterday.

38:21 – Create accountability up front

Accountability can help motivate people to keep taking action.

I’d also call that accountability and just skin in the game is a great way to put it. Hey I’m invested in this and I would call it a hack. It’s a hack for a subset. Right? So I wouldn’t, or maybe we’ll call it a set, but subset would be, I think it’s more fair. One of the trendiest ones on that same note like, hey, post yourself, take a picture of yourself that captures your body in its current shape and then post it and then get on this thing because now you’ve created this social accountability. You’ve got everybody looking to say, okay, she, he posted or a person posted this thing in their shape and they’re saying, “This is bad as I’m going to let it get. And then from here on out, check back in next number of months.” They’re creating accountability and their commitment is there up front.

42:36 – The reward has to be greater than the cognitive load

Even if the cognitive load is huge, as long as the reward is greater, people will take action.

Because I see a cost benefit analysis upfront as cost reward. Every screen I’ll look at it as I’m designing it and I’ll think, where’s the reward here? The cognitive load the, how much information are we presenting at a time? And then what am I getting out of it? Every screen, there’s countless. Right? I have these little green bars in my head. Little red, green. And cognitive load, well, this is the interesting part about reward. Load can be through the roof and reward is a little higher. Still happens. You still see it. You pay taxes. I pay taxes, taxes are terrible. I hate doing it. I do it every year and I hate it. Just talking about it. I get a pinch on my shoulder, but it’s a physical reaction. I hate doing taxes. But the reward is that I don’t go to jail. And there you go, I don’t want to go to jail and I don’t want to spend more than I’m already going to spend on taxes.

Brett Redinger (00:06):

I tell people all the time, when they complain about Instagram, I just say, “Delete it. You’re mad, you hate ads, you hate Zuckerberg, just delete it.” And they start to tell me all the reasons they can’t.

Brett Redinger (00:15):

“Well, it’s got all my photos, but then I would lose…” It’s because you’ve built, you invested and invested and now you’re complaining about your investment, but you could always bail, but nobody does.

Ben Grynol (00:32):

I’m Ben Grynol, part of the early startup team here at Levels. We’re building tech that helps people to understand their metabolic health. And this is your front row seat, to everything we do. This, is A Whole New Level.

Ben Grynol (00:58):

Behavior change, is a really deep topic. It’s something that you can dig into from a design perspective, you can start to think about touch points that you design for people. You can start to influence people to, have certain outcomes. When you think about things like cue-routine-reward, well these are all, part of a habit loop.

Ben Grynol (01:18):

So Brett Redinger, Principal Designer who recently joined Levels. He and I sat down and we talked about this idea of, designing opportunities for joy. Designing opportunities for surprise, elements that will lead to certain intrinsic motivation or give people a sense of encouragement in the tooling, in the platform that they’re provided to make their own choices and to influence their behavior outcomes.

Ben Grynol (01:43):

So we broke down all of these different things, different elements of motivation, whether it’s intrinsic or extrinsic. Talking about things like cues, talking about things like routine and even reward. How people can think about these habits for themselves, whether they’ve got tooling in front of them, or not.

Ben Grynol (02:00):

It was really fun to jam with Brett. And to hear more about his perspective, as he thinks about designing the product of Levels. Here’s where we kick things off.

Ben Grynol (02:16):

Let’s kick it off here. You’ve got a fascinating background. You’ve got your site, your website, and you’ve got this tagline that says, I design smiles and habits every day. You’ve worked with companies like Facebook and Tesla and Nike and Disney and GE and all of these companies on these different initiatives.

Ben Grynol (02:34):

When we think about design as a function or a facet, a lot of times the heuristic might be pushing pixels. But really when you get down to design, this foundation of design, you can start to think about designing experiences and designing for positive habits or positive behavior change to unfold. So why don’t we kick it off there, this whole idea of design and behavior change in the intersection and the marriage between all of it.

Brett Redinger (03:03):

Yeah. So one, I prototyped for myself for Tesla, because I, when I, so that’s the one job that didn’t hire me. I like them, but they didn’t hire me. Just to keep the record straight. So you summed it up really well.

Brett Redinger (03:15):

So I wouldn’t say I focus really. I spent… So the arc right? And I can go into too much about the arc of design. But started out designing, I was more of an Art Director. So I was doing stuff like Tapulous, Tap Tap Revenge.

Brett Redinger (03:30):

I did Katie Perry’s app, Lady Gaga and I would take their style, make a bunch of art, stick it into a bunch of UI. That was kind of, let it out the door but that’s where I got it. That job is where I started to get into game design.

Brett Redinger (03:41):

So I was hanging out with game designers, and I was reading about ELO systems and all the different ways that games are made and how people respond to games and how play, is pretty much outside of pain, the best educator. So it’s a lot of what we’ll talk about is seeking pleasure and avoiding pain.

Brett Redinger (03:56):

But play, has predefined rules with a high limit for reward and a low limit for pain. It’s like we agree that we’ll stop at a certain point or we won’t have any mal-intent.

Brett Redinger (04:06):

So that art was kind of, first it was art and then I got super into the neurology aspect, the behavioral aspect and that’s where I met Nir. One time I reached out to Nir, I read something he wrote and I was like, “Habit is the first step in a three step process. So your whole book is about step one.” And he was like, “Is this guy…” He’s at Stanford. He was writing Hooked at the time and so we just met up and I’m a big believer in what Nir preaches, but also Nir as a person he’s a great human, we’ve been friends for a long time.

Brett Redinger (04:41):

And his intention, he’s always wanted people to design better habits. He’s just broke down. He did a great job of getting into the trigger, action, reward, being that variable reward, being that loop to routine.

Brett Redinger (04:53):

To me, that was the first step in a three step process, which and people don’t find the other two steps that interesting, unless you’re a habit dork. But as a habit dork, you go to a restaurant, we’re just talking about food. You go to a restaurant and somebody hands you a book, and that little book is closed up and it’s got a piece of paper in it and you sign, and it’s like, “This makes no sense, we live in the modern world. Let me tap my phone, do this thing.” Right?

Brett Redinger (05:16):

But the habit, the first, somebody needed… You had the tab, you didn’t have to pay up front. It was assumed that you were going to consume the food and then decide to pay and that formed. Right? And then this somewhere, I haven’t tracked this one back, but I track a lot of the weird ones back.

Brett Redinger (05:32):

But then this started coming in this book to this day, it’s 2023 and someone’s still out there producing these tiny little books and things because it went from habit to being a cultural thing. And then so bowing, bowings one that I can actually break down.

Brett Redinger (05:46):

So bowing started, as people in Asia, the samurai, you just show them your neck, that was the idea. Was like, oh, you’re so dominant over me. That like, go ahead, take it. They showed you their neck. And then it just became this way of saying hello. And it’s like now, no one’s going to stop bowing.

Brett Redinger (06:03):

Even when you talk to people, you’re like, “Why do you bow?”, “It’s, what people do. Right?” So it’s just really an interesting idea. It started out as this habit and then they became a cultural thing and then it’s so ingrained it’s just a tradition and people don’t know why they do them. That’s to me where I find that super interesting.

Ben Grynol (06:19):

You can go so deep when you get into the, I mean the nerdiest aspect of design is the intersection of the psychology of it. Right? And as you said, breaking down habits into trigger routine reward.

Ben Grynol (06:30):

I mean, there are all these different parts of it that we can break apart, but why don’t we go into the idea of how do people, even form these habits and how does that inform some of the work that you do from a design perspective?

Brett Redinger (06:43):

Well, so I think of habits as just biases for action. When you talk about a bias, if I had to relearn how to conversate every time, because I never stored any information about waiting, pausing, letting you talk, sharing my idea, asking you questions, letting you… Right? I had to read on it.

Brett Redinger (07:03):

It would be almost impossible to live life. In 20… The past few years its all been like, “Oh we got to break up bias, stop bias.” Oh sure. There’s lots of bad bias. But 90% of the bias is what keeps reality rolling. Right? And then so when I see habits, I think of bias towards actions.

Brett Redinger (07:18):

So I go running, I get up in the morning and I try to get some physical activity right out the gates. But it’s because I’ve experienced the arc of not doing that, feeling off, not really getting it, being maybe a little antsy in my seat before I do something. And then it’s just like I just got to get it out of it.

Brett Redinger (07:34):

So I’ve built this habit and it’s almost the majority of them. I like to be more positive and say, that are not majority of them are seeking pain avoidant, but they, I mean that’s truth. It’s, a lot of them are the pleasure seeking ones, we can get into them from terms of, it’s so hard because I know all this to be true, but I also know drug addicts.

Brett Redinger (07:53):

I’ve met drug addicts and alcoholics and it’s so hard, because you’re avoiding pain by making more pain. That gets really confusing at the dark end. I just started a book, Dopamine Nation, which a really great book on addiction, but I’m not informed enough to speak to it directly yet, but maybe our next podcast will be about that.

Brett Redinger (08:10):

So on the happy side, on the medium to happy side. Habits designed properly, we’re doing real work to help people. That’s when I got out of video games and got out of… I did, I wouldn’t say crimes, but getting kids addicted to games, doesn’t feel great at the end.

Brett Redinger (08:25):

When you’re like, “Oh yay! Now we’ve got a hundred million users.” And they’re just a bunch of kids that are drilling away at a video game. You’re like, “Oh man, I don’t know.” I guess they’re avoiding some pain with entertainment, but I got out of games and I haven’t looked back. I don’t think I’d go back to that space. I appreciate it for what it is, but it’s just not my thing.

Ben Grynol (08:44):

The thing with habits is you can have really good habits and you can have bad habits. And that’s the challenge is, the idea isn’t just to undo bad habits, it’s to promote good habits and to promote that those go on and on.

Ben Grynol (08:57):

And when you dig into it, how much of that? So let’s go into this macro category of habits, but how much of it is intrinsic motivation and how much of it is tooling when you start to think about design like designing the tooling to inspire the habit?

Ben Grynol (09:14):

How much does each play a role? Is it a crossover of both? You have to have some intrinsic motivation or can you use a tooling where it just drives the habit? Go deeper into that.

Brett Redinger (09:25):

Sure. Yeah. So when you say tooling, I think of perception. Right? So perception is reality. That’s no surprise. Right? But forming your habit is just as much about shaping the perception of the habit, of the product. And a lot of brands spend the majority of their money on carving out that perception. Right?

Brett Redinger (09:44):

So that’s almost all of marketing, influencing is carving up this perception of value added of the scratch itch, of maybe an itch you didn’t know you had. I’ve heard a few VC firms break it down as utility or luxury. And luxury is utility in a lot of ways.

Brett Redinger (09:59):

I don’t know in my mind, I don’t have kids, but because I’m the age I’m at and I don’t know, the algorithms are always trying to sell me nanny services. And nanny service is a utility and luxury. Right? So there’s real blurry line. It’s not like it’s binaries people would say.

Brett Redinger (10:12):

But back to what you’re asking. So marketing needs to do the job of carving out the perception and sales. Marketing and sales are carving the perception. That perception needs to be matched by the product, whatever Levels team is selling out in the world we have to be… The Levels team, the design team has to be building. Right? So that there’s a cohesion because trust is the currency by which brands trade on.

Brett Redinger (10:37):

The fed never opened the iMessage. I don’t think, I think we all watched that. Right? I don’t know. I think maybe went supreme court even, but they’re just like, “Hey, we can’t, we don’t make it that way.” I don’t know. People trust Apple so deeply, their Net Promoter Scores, I think the highest in history.

Brett Redinger (10:53):

So for me a lot of that is, I’m trying to back up marketing. So I’m trying to like, “Okay we want to sell. I’ve heard a lot of different, there’s clear documentation obviously, but from individuals around, what Levels does?” Right? And it’s we’re trying to alleviate the metabolic crisis. Right?

Brett Redinger (11:10):

But for me it’s the hard, cold truth of all of these things is that nobody can make change for you, but you. Right? So we can be a support but that’s, what I believe Levels does is creates, is supports you by giving you objective information around because there’s a lot of subjectivity. Right?

Brett Redinger (11:29):

You can, miles of it, we can go get crystals to heal our metabolic health. Right? The objective part is I have this thing, it’s just getting a little sample, getting a little out of my blood and its giving me objective truths around of what’s happening.

Brett Redinger (11:42):

So let’s go back. I almost have never seen a habit without comprehension. So if you don’t know, if we’re trying to bring something new to your table, we’re trying to put something on you. You have to understand, even if gambling, you’re pulling the thing because the comprehension is there that there’s a reward involved.

Brett Redinger (11:59):

But without comprehension of reward, without, I’ve even been guilty of calling it cognitive load versus reward. Cognitive load is a really big loaded topic that science actually has a bunch of predetermined things to say about it, but cost, reward, benefit analysis or whatever. Right?

Brett Redinger (12:13):

So why am I going to do this? What am I going to get out of it? People run that constantly. So I’m always pointing to people without of those, trying to bridge all of those ideas that we talking about. Right? So is marketing selling the right thing? Are we painting the picture of an itch? That we can improve you or the things that can improve? Are we following through with that and how we execute?

Brett Redinger (12:36):

And then a lot of that comes in and then why I say you mentioned that my little tagline on my site, I have to find all of that’s, so complicated and I got to make you smile. I got to make you remember it. I got to make you laugh. I got to make it inch and so variable reward and that’s where my video game pass comes in great.

Brett Redinger (12:53):

I don’t know, maybe you’ve seen a couple things I’ve made so far. They’re they’re not in the app yet, but we’re getting there. But they’re all the little explosions of pixels. They’re little happy faces, they’re little, I have a dancing guy. Can’t wait, I’ll show you the dancing guy.

Brett Redinger (13:04):

We’ve got you, when you log food we got a guy that’s like you break your record and it’s silly. And a lot of people will, “Wow, we do this.” And it’s because variable reward is the thing in my mind, it’s one of the biggest things that’s overlooked in the prime design process.

Brett Redinger (13:18):

Because if it’s just like, “Oh, Hey, you got the little button popped.”, “That’s so multi-variable.”, “Who liked it?”, “What was it?” There’s so many things about that. And we have these really linear things. What food did you log? What’s your score? So we have to find ways to really bring joy to those moments.

Ben Grynol (13:36):

The idea of unexpected surprise and joy drives dopamine. Right? One of the challenges with these dopamine hits though, because dopamine hits can be good, but you can get into a place we’ll use, we’ll break it down to interface design, but also algorithms. Right?

Ben Grynol (13:55):

And there’s a lot of things that can be done to inspire or to increase these dopamine hits that can start to get on the slippery slope of performing these dark patterns. Right?

Brett Redinger (14:06):

Oh yeah.

Ben Grynol (14:07):

How do you start to think about avoiding? If you are being, we’ll call it an “ethical designer”. Right?

Brett Redinger (14:15):

Sure.

Ben Grynol (14:15):

Your goal is to inspire behavior change. Inspire these dopamine hits within a certain constraint, we’ll say. But not go so deep down the path that you start to inspire these dark patterns. And to your point of some of the, maybe moral dilemmas that what it sounds came about when you’re doing game design really.

Ben Grynol (14:36):

We really, we crushed a ton of users, but I don’t know if I can get behind sitting there and just hammering on the buttons of the game and it’s driving a ton of dopamine hits and it’s doing all the things we did, but like eh, how do you start to think about that? Avoiding dark patterns, but, and still being an, we’ll call it an ethical designer.

Brett Redinger (14:56):

Yeah. Well, so what are we trying to do? Right? So that comes back to where you point this weapon, this laser. Right? And I’m trying to point it at the unhealthy version of you. Right? So at being at a healthcare company, we’re trying to, “Hey, we’re trying to get you on this drug of joy that takes you to it, that improves your life. Not takes your money like at in a gambling sense or the other ones.” Right?

Brett Redinger (15:19):

So I believe from the outside looking in, I was, this company, this process, this end goal is a good place to aim a habit formation. And in terms of dark patterns, a lot of them are so, they were interesting at the early, let’s call it web 2.0 I guess. They were interesting at that point because they were tricking people into spending money.

Brett Redinger (15:42):

But here’s the problem with that. You break trust, immediately. Right? And so once you break trust, there’s a beautiful meme, I just saw the other day. It was, I’m sure it’s a famous quote, but I’ve just caught it as a meme. It was like, “It takes years to develop trust, minutes to break it. And it takes, or weeks, months to build trust, minutes to break it and years to rebuild it.” It’s some, I’m getting the metrics wrong, but you get the general idea.

Brett Redinger (16:05):

And so we constantly, once you have somebody’s trust you’re holding it with such care that you never do those things. So it’s people always, I get hit with dark pattern questions. What are my favorite ones? How do I use them? I’m always never, it’s a cheap win. I’m sitting here trying to make you fall in love. It’s like asking you, how do you trick somebody in dating you?

Brett Redinger (16:26):

It’s like no, I don’t trick them. I’d be me and I’m authentic. I get authenticity goes so much further. Authenticity and honesty goes so much further and makes so much more for you than one of those things. That it’s not even comparable, really.

Ben Grynol (16:41):

Dark patterns are so dangerous because, companies can fall into the trap of pursuing them for the wrong reason. So we’ll say driving growth. Right? Driving growth, driving more users, more members, more, it depends on the type of product.

Ben Grynol (16:55):

But people to do this certain thing and that becomes like, “Let’s get a little meta for a sec.” Is like meta about meta. Right? That becomes the initiative of the company, that becomes a dopamine hit. The dopamine hit for the company is, “Hey, we are driving growth. We’re getting people to do this thing and that feels really good.”

Ben Grynol (17:15):

You’re also in that game. Right? As a company, you are in the game of growth if you’re a VC backed company. And so the dichotomy is trying to play between doing the ethical and the right thing and the authentic thing, as you mentioned, that’s got the long lens. How do we do this for the long game while still maintaining a path of progression. Right?

Ben Grynol (17:37):

Not this idea of, let’s just manufacture this thing for people to do in the short term so that we can say, “Hey, cool, look, we got all these vanity metrics. We got a whole bunch of people to do this one thing.” And it’s that one thing actually what you want the outcome to be?

Ben Grynol (17:53):

Are you doing it to report some outcome that makes it sort of inflates or manufactures this idea of pat ourselves on the back, we’re doing great. But it’s that mission aligned? I mean, it’s a little philosophical, but it gets into the idea of thinking with a long lens when trying to design these behaviors.

Brett Redinger (18:11):

Well, no, I’m here for it I like what you’re talking about, but my immediate response would be, yes, we’re focused on the long term gains. So when we actually achieve the mission, we get somebody to understand blood glucose. We help them. We don’t do anything for them, but we help them take control of their diet and of their exercise patterns and understanding how their food is affecting their mood and their health.

Brett Redinger (18:35):

They become evangelists. That’s growth. Right? So if I pinged you and I was like, “Hey dude, you got to try this restaurant, blah, blah. I told you why it’s so great.” The difference between that hit, versus the, a popup in your, a scroll in your Instagram feed of being live with a ring light and a TikTok dance telling you either, you can’t even compare the two. It’s immeasurable amounts of influence.

Brett Redinger (18:57):

But when you come from a point of, our long term gains and short term gains, I don’t think any VCs should be, I wouldn’t trust any of them that are focused on short term gains and short term rises like that. Right?

Brett Redinger (19:09):

Oh, we’re going to hit a million, then two million, three million. It’s like. “Hey, let’s get a million evangelists for our product.” And then we have this long term where our lens is so pulled out that people and then nobody can get in the way of that. Right?

Brett Redinger (19:22):

I haven’t really met anyone that I trusted that were like let’s see how quick we can cash this and throw these people out. Let’s get… Nobody’s focused on that and especially in healthcare. All places.

Ben Grynol (19:33):

When it comes to behavior change in forming habits, there are certain things that can be done from a macro perspective, we’ll say within product. Right? Product community, it doesn’t matter, education, but there’s a lot of things that can be done from a macro perspective.

Ben Grynol (19:49):

But how much, when you’re thinking about designing these things, do you think about the challenge of designing for personalization? So that being interests, that being, right? Subcommunities or subgroups where we’ll say some tooling, tooling being interfaces.

Ben Grynol (20:06):

Some tooling is just not going to work for the jobs to be done for a certain group of people because of interest or because of the actual tool like, “Hey, I don’t use this thing for that. I use the hammer to open bottle caps on a beer and other people are using it for framing a house.”

Ben Grynol (20:23):

And so it’s just completely different execution. Totally ridiculous example. But how do you think about personalization when you are trying to do something that’s going to work for enough people knowing that it’s not perfect for everyone?

Brett Redinger (20:38):

Well yeah. So I spend every, so before I open my Figma file, which if it wasn’t in such a mess right now, I’d just screen share it and do it. But my first screen, they call it your cover. That’s hard to explain but when you see all your files, it’s a cover file for a thing.

Brett Redinger (20:50):

Mine says the fun zone. So at the front. And then when I open that, then the first thing I do before I pull through all my other pages is I’ve got all of our personas up. Right? And I’ll go back and reread them. It’s my, I don’t eat sushi, but I know people eat something before sushi, ginger, they put a little ginger on their tongue. And somehow that clears the palette and prepares them for the thing.

Brett Redinger (21:14):

So for me, I cleanse with that. So I start with this thing, I start and I am the user. Right? So I don’t have mine on today cause I [inaudible 00:21:21] later. But I fit into bracket, but I’m also well aware of these other four, five major group that we designed for.

Brett Redinger (21:29):

And that focus for me, it’s in every single thing I do. And so I never get to escape it. I would love a day off from having to think about the whole thing. I think what really helps people from a UX perspective and Allen is great at this. Is going from eagle to ant and how well you can context switch from eagle. What are we doing and why? And how, and generally who are we trying to help?

Brett Redinger (21:53):

And then ant. How is this zoomed down to the detail of how would this reward, or how would this work if I’m this persona? How does this feel? And you’re, so you’re, it’s this insane ADD context switching thing that you have to actually do that’s not negative in life where that’s normally pretty painful for people.

Brett Redinger (22:12):

It’s really helpful in the product design process, because you have to switch personalities, you got to switch context, you have to constant switch. Gets a multi-variant balancing problem after that.

Ben Grynol (22:22):

It’s interesting because there’s so much that can be done and you can get lost in the weeds when you get really deep and all of a sudden you go, “Oh my gosh, I have to get to the 10,000 foot view to make sure that we’re still on the right track with what we’re trying to do.”

Brett Redinger (22:35):

And I mean, and that’s what our team is great at. I mean, that’s Moz, everybody. Once somebody gets shared, it’s everybody’s great at hurting this from the little to the, from the micro to the macro.

Ben Grynol (22:44):

Why don’t we go into the breaking down habits into cue-routine-reward. Let’s go through that. Habit cycle and just break down some of the thoughts in how people can form these habits.

Ben Grynol (22:55):

There’s the tooling side of things, but then there’s also giving people insight into if they haven’t read books on habit like Atomic Habits or Hooked or any of the great books. Why don’t we break down what they are and some of the thoughts on what people can do when they’re trying to form their own positive habits and make long-term behavior change.

Ben Grynol (23:18):

A great habit is, if people want to floss more and they lay the floss out beside their toothbrush. So it’s like, “Oh, that’s my cue to remember to do that thing before I do the other, every night.” You form the habit over time.

Brett Redinger (23:33):

Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, each of these, I encourage Nir all the time that he should just write a book about each. He wrote the book on, but I’m always like, “Dude, just make one on, just triggers.” Because if you just, you can go so deep on, okay so from the trigger aspect, there’s extrinsic and intrinsic and I think there’s a lot of arguments we can go into but at the general level, something starts often in the modern world.

Brett Redinger (23:55):

When it comes to products, they start from an extrinsic, the world shows you something, an ad gets to you, a friend comes to you and, or an evangelist of a brand is like, “I love this thing. It worked me.” And somebody’s painting a picture for you of a better future of either pain avoidant or pleasure seeking. Right?

Brett Redinger (24:11):

“Oh my God, you got to try this food.” That’s not necessarily, you can call it pain avoidant because you’re like, “Ooh, you’re hungry.” Or like, “Ooh you haven’t tried anything new in a while.” Maybe that could link that up that way or just pleasure seeking like, “Oh my God, this pizza.” Right? It’s just, and someone that goes at my mouth, just waters from hearing that, because again, my brain has that beats enough times. Right?

Brett Redinger (24:31):

So, but what’s really interesting is these, what I find is these edges. Right? I have this internal trigger, this internal need because I know I don’t feel good. Right? And then you start seeking these rewards or these pathways, they’ll help you be pain avoidant in that way. And we can get into the annoying triggers, but or notifications, pings.

Brett Redinger (24:51):

In the modern world I think most people leave. I almost everybody know, leaves their phone on silent. I don’t subscribe to any emails. I’ve got the most amazing blockers for spam, but all the tools that I almost, again call them web 2.0 tools. All the tools for getting my attention are completely almost all of them are amiss at this point.

Brett Redinger (25:09):

But I am also Product Designer. I designed my life. I know a bunch of people that have a 300 inbox. I live with zero inbox life. Right? They have the things I can’t necessarily that I can relate to, but there’s piles of triggers and just finding the ones that work for your brand and for your, what you’re doing and what your services is one of the, probably one of the biggest challenges.

Ben Grynol (25:30):

So let’s say there’s a scenario where a person has the right intent. They’ve come around, let’s sort of role play this one out. Somebody’s come around to the point where they’ve got this intent.

Ben Grynol (25:42):

They’ve said, “I’m going to hack myself. I’m going to lay out my gym clothes. Because I’ve heard that if you lay out your gym clothes before going to the gym or the night before, there’s a higher probability that you’ll actually lace up the shoes and go for the run.”

Ben Grynol (25:59):

That is relatively true. But it’s also really easy to just get up and look at them and be like, “Ah, I’m grabbing my phone.”, “Ah, not to make…” There are all these excuses. And so the intent is there, but there’s still this mental hurdle in execution. And so let’s take it to the extreme.

Brett Redinger (26:17):

Sure.

Ben Grynol (26:18):

I want to get better at exercising or running. I physically put a treadmill in front of my bedroom door so that it will magically remove itself. You have to run for 10 minutes or some amount of time for it to be physically removed, like it vanishes into the world.

Ben Grynol (26:34):

So you can go to these extremes of trying to hack your own habits, but how extreme should people and can people take it? Because there are times where hypothetically somebody needs that support mechanism or the accountability mechanism of the “treadmill” in front of their door because they’re like this is the only thing, that I need to get out of my room. So this is a means to an end.

Ben Grynol (26:57):

But eventually you could just sort of dismiss that and be like, I did it and it’s not there anymore. And they go assume that we get to this steady state and it’s you have achieved the level. You’ve won the game. Now you are accountable enough to yourself that you’ll do this in long term. And then the next day somebody goes back to just the habit of not doing it.

Ben Grynol (27:15):

So how much should people, or can people go to these extremes or is it, are there other things that people can do based on your experience and expertise where, when one mechanism like the laying out the clothes the night before doesn’t quite work. Is it try something else simple like that to give the cue? Is it go to the extreme of like treadmill in front of the door? What’s sort of your outlook on that.

Brett Redinger (27:42):

I’m going to unpack a lot of that because you just stumbled, you just went through a bull in a China shop through all the things that actually are happening here. Right? So let’s go back to the beginning.

Brett Redinger (27:52):

So motivation. There’s a something Fogg, guy from Stanford. He made B=MAT. So behavior equals motivation over ability and trigger. Right? That’s just the whole thing backwards. So let’s just flip that back.

Brett Redinger (28:08):

So trigger, what you’re talking about is, you become motivated and you’re now you’re trying to hack your behavior so you’re laying something in your way. Being in your way… And I have a friend that just literally just told me what you told me. He was like, “Oh I put a dip bar between my bed and my door.” And I was like, “Okay.” And then those are great, when you’re actually, but those assume that you’re motivated. Right?

Brett Redinger (28:27):

So without motivation, which is one of the hardest things to hack in life for some people. Without that, it’s just the thing you’re going to walk around. It’s just a messy room. Right? The underlying mechanism there, is well, first off motivation, but the ability that we’re going to assume that you have the motivation to do it, the ability to get done, what you’re trying to do.

Brett Redinger (28:46):

So say, when it comes to fitness, all of this, what you have to feel is either you have to back to trigger, you have to hear somebody else be like, “Oh, hey. Ben, oh, you’ve been running a lot and you look great.” So there’s this like, “Oh, I want that compliment.” Right? Or you have to have the experience where you actually got over this hump to work at out once or twice and some part of the universe, whether it’s internal that gave you that, “I ran and I feel good after.” That’s what people don’t get.

Brett Redinger (29:14):

None of these people are extreme cyclists, and I find cycling to be terrible. It hurts my whole body. The hunch, I dislocated my shoulder once I sit at an angle, that’s just uninviting. But every bikes, 50 plus miles. But once you come off of that high, you’re like, “Oh” and then now you’re back.

Brett Redinger (29:34):

What other people are processing or what you prior were processing as pain, and you were seeing as like, “Oh, why would I do that? It hurts. It’s expensive.” Bicyclist likes that because the reward on the other side of that, feels so good.

Brett Redinger (29:46):

It’s now you’re hook. Now you got a airtight helmet that does a thing. You got spandex, you’re investing. So that’s one of these bigger arcs that we didn’t really… Cover was, investment phase. It’s one of the most important phases in the whole process. Right?

Brett Redinger (30:00):

Now, I tell people all the time, when they complain about Instagram, I just say, “Delete it. Just delete it. You’re mad, you hate ads, you hate Zuckerberg, just delete it.” And they start to tell me all the reasons they can’t.

Brett Redinger (30:12):

“Well, it’s got all my photos, but then I would lose…” It’s because you’ve built, you’ve invested and invested and invested and now you’re complaining about your investment, but you could always bail, but nobody does.

Brett Redinger (30:24):

There’s this, whether you’re extreme biker, once it’s just, once you get that hit and then once you’ve invested, because you can get that hit, then not invest and you can be gone. Without the investment, without stored value. It’s very hard to come back to products, digital products, especially so.

Ben Grynol (30:39):

Sunk costs can lead people down in a very weird path. If you don’t ignore sunk costs, if you just look at it and you’re like, “Well I’ve put so much into this.” It’s like scrap it, sunk costs. Not getting any of that back.

Ben Grynol (30:55):

That’s gone. The ship has sailed. Now move forward with what do you, how do you want to… Mike D and I had a conversation the other day, we were talking about the idea of casting votes for who you want to be tomorrow. Right?

Ben Grynol (31:07):

That says, hey ignore, you’ve got a bunch of sunk costs. Who cares? Who do you want to be tomorrow? Right? When thinking through the idea of motivation is such a fascinating topic to go into. Right? Especially when you get into the idea of Dan Pink with Autonomy Mastery and Purpose. And a lot of that has to do with intrinsic motivation.

Ben Grynol (31:27):

Why don’t we break down the idea of, extrinsic motivation doesn’t necessarily lead people to get the right outcome, but there’s a time and a place for extrinsic motivators. Right? There is a time and a place and that’s been proved.

Ben Grynol (31:44):

When used in the wrong place they actually lead to lower motivation though. And that’s where intrinsic motivation comes in. So why don’t we break down the idea of when to use intrinsic motivators, little things that will help to drive more intrinsic motivation and then when extrinsic rewards actually work?

Brett Redinger (32:02):

Yeah. So-

Ben Grynol (32:03):

I know it’s a meaty topic, but…

Brett Redinger (32:04):

Again, a book or a whole podcast, just motivation. And I wish I could say that I was the master of motivation, in life. But as somebody who is in a permanent state of motivation, this is one of my larger struggles because when I’m, people are just well, they’re just not motivated.

Brett Redinger (32:20):

It’s just like, what are they? If we are not motivated what are we? I have literally friends that are just like, “I know exactly what I need to do. These are all of my problems and I just can’t get myself to do them.” And it’s just like, “What do you…” Okay. The way that I… In those cases, I’m like, “You need an accountability, buddy. You need somebody to hold you, to what you’re talking about it votes for the future. To hold you to back that vote, to hold you to the action.” And that’s where I think one of the hardest bridges for people to get across is action.

Brett Redinger (32:52):

And when they’re uncapable of the smallest amount, that’s where it’s rate becomes really hard, but that smallest amount is where we catch people. Right? So if they can give us a little bit, we can give them that reward. Then we can keep ratcheting that up and we can find somebody super motivated and super reward driven because we’ve continued to support them, with new rewards and new ways of doing things.

Brett Redinger (33:14):

We built bigger piles of trust. If you draw levels out and let’s start with somebody who is barely interested, maybe was gifted levels kind of didn’t even really want to do it. It’s like, “Okay, I’ll give it a try.” But does have some pervasive health issues that could really be helped by levels.

Brett Redinger (33:31):

If I can get them to get the first CGM1 and just get a ground truth, just get a base understanding, and enough motivation to get over that hump, which is not, we’re not going to make that hump. We’re not going to play that down. That’s still a hump. Right? But we can get them up over that.

Brett Redinger (33:46):

I can hit them, with the way that we intend to do scoring in the future. Or, and we talked a lot about, is much more dynamic from where you are to where you’re going. Not necessarily like here’s to David Sinclair, good luck. Get there. But let’s ratchet you up.

Brett Redinger (34:01):

So meeting people where they’re at and giving them rewards and hits based off of that and giving them and only that, but not saying… So when you come from a place of knowing, “Hey, I know all of this, I don’t know anything.”

Brett Redinger (34:13):

What I’m sharing with you is a scratch of the surface of reality. That from my little bit of a lens, but when you come from a place of knowing, when you’re talking to a customer versus a place of exploration, especially when it comes to health, it’s like, “Hey, let’s find out what this does to you.”, “What is CGM? Let’s see what it does. Let’s see.”, “Okay, cool. Let’s see.”, “Now let’s try this diet.” Or “Try mixing, try reducing this by a little bit and meaning that by a little bit more.” A lot of people don’t do well with, do this.

Brett Redinger (34:38):

Get back to us that doesn’t work for, I almost argue with the majority of people. So people want guidance, but they nobody wants to be controlled. Right? So we give them that little bit of guidance to say, let them, but they have to feel not only the reward from what we make and how we communicate. They need to feel the health reward. They need to catch that compliment out in reality.

Brett Redinger (34:56):

“Oh, I’m, look, you’re ordering that? Oh, I would’ve thought you would ordered this.” Or you need to feel some kind of social validation, some kind of thing out in reality. That’s like, “Oh yeah, this is a better choice.” And that comes to who you’re around and things that are slightly outside of our control.

Brett Redinger (35:10):

But on our end I’m like boom! Pixel explosion, happy face dance. You just did better than yesterday. I’m sure you’ve read, I think there’s 3% betters of book out but there’s a few of those passage, just make these tiny improvements. Right?

Brett Redinger (35:22):

Back to your question when I’m trying to get somebody that motivation, I need that little bit and then I can make that bit, this bit and then we can make… And we can keep ratcheting it up and trying to get you to a point where you don’t even wear the CGM, use the app to track.

Brett Redinger (35:37):

But you’re like, “This is what got me on track.” And you’re out there in the world, feeling that reward you’ve gone from being somewhat motivated to largely motivated, right? That’s our goal, is pull up people’s motivation in a direction of health.

Ben Grynol (35:50):

There’s an interesting thing around, using extrinsic motivation. The other side of that. So everything you just said, the other side of it is using extrinsic rewards, which sounds like if we’re playing ping pong right now, mental ping pong, and we’re designing an experiment and we try to rationalize it from a theoretical perspective.

Ben Grynol (36:10):

So we’re bringing in all these behavioral economics concepts, and we’re really thinking through the psychological aspects. There’s some experiments that can be designed, that might seem on paper, they aren’t a good idea.

Ben Grynol (36:23):

So one being, let’s use loss aversion, let’s bring in an extrinsic factor and use the concept of loss aversion and say, “Should we tie that into health and wellness?” On the surface that sounds like a terrible idea. Right? For, because it’s maybe inspiring the wrong outcomes in people. It’s like, “Well, are we actually getting them to do the right things?”

Brett Redinger (36:41):

It’s fear based.

Ben Grynol (36:43):

Exactly, which is the opposite of what we’re trying to achieve with health. Right? We’re saying, “No, let’s make it a positive experience.”, “Let’s make people understand from an education perspective, what this whole journey of health and wellness is.”, “Let’s give them the right tools.”, “Let’s give them the elements of joy and surprise and all of these.” All these great things.

Ben Grynol (37:02):

So where it comes into play is, we’ve got the wearable challenge, which is the group Aaron Hanson and Justin Mares have designed this weight loss challenge for people, where they pay money before they start the challenge, and they have to earn it back. Right? So it’s like loss aversion, and it’s their own money end, end, end.

Ben Grynol (37:24):

So you think does that really seem right? But the outcome is that people say, “Hey, this is what I needed.” And they not only enjoy the experience, but some sign up again and again, because they say, “I’ve tried.” It’s almost their willingness to pay is inelastic. Right? Their goal is, they we’ll call it, not just their willingness to pay. Their goal is inelastic.

Ben Grynol (37:45):

They’re just, “I’m willing, I’ve tried everything in the world. At this point, I’m willing to do whatever it’s going to take to achieve my goal.” And so then that’s where willingness to pay the inelastic comes in, where they’re just like, “I don’t care. I want to do this things.”

Ben Grynol (37:58):

So how do you think about the experimentation when it comes to some of these things, where it’s on paper, they can sound kind of goofy or silly or maybe dark. Right? Maybe it’s not cuing the right outcome, but then people actually try it and you’re like, “Wow that is completely the opposite of my hypothesis, what I thought would happen.”

Brett Redinger (38:19):

Yeah. I would call that painter version. Right? And I’d also call that accountability and just be skin in the game. Is a good, great way to put it. Right? Hey I’m invested in this and I would call it a hack more than it’s a hack for a great, for a subset. Right? So I wouldn’t, or maybe we’ll call him a set, but subset would be, I think it’s more fair.

Brett Redinger (38:39):

One of the trendiest ones on that same note like, hey, post yourself, take a picture of yourself that captures your body and its current shape and then post it and then get on this thing because now you’ve created this social accountability. You’ve got everybody looking to say, okay, she, he posted or a person posted this thing in a better shape and they’re saying, “This is bad as I’m going to let it get. And then from here on out, check back in next number of months.” Right?

Brett Redinger (39:05):

They’re creating accountability and their commitment is there up front. And it’s one of the ways of doing it. I mean, for us, it’s spend a couple hundred bucks on a CGM. It’s like, “Hey, if I’m buying this, if I’m putting this thing on, I got to do this. I’m committed now. I’m invested. I got to see… I’d be interested to see how many of those people lose their money. I’d also be interested to see…” Which is a great business for them.

Brett Redinger (39:25):

I’ve been to houses where I come in and I’m like, “Oh, that’s an amazing Bowflex. You got the whole thing.” And they’re like, “Yeah.” and you can see the layer of dust on it and they’re not a Bowflex person.

Brett Redinger (39:35):

But it’s sunk in cost. You talked about it, it’s like, “Oh, hi.” It just didn’t stick. They didn’t build a habit around it. They didn’t get themselves… Back to the, you mentioned when you were in the bull in the China shop, you mentioned the shoelaces thing. Right?

Brett Redinger (39:48):

So, or the layer stuff out. People, I’m going to drop this thing right here and that’s going to make me do it, so that doesn’t hit motivation. You can be creating a trigger. You can be saying that you’re pushing up triggers in a lot of ways or you’re trying to manufacture triggers but the motivation doesn’t necessarily mean it’s behind that trigger.

Ben Grynol (40:06):

You got to put that Bowflex in front of the bedroom door. It’s so hard.

Brett Redinger (40:11):

And I feel like I’m, talking I know this maybe even better than you. I got to flag. A lot of this is just, it’s such a multi-variable problem. And it’s so individual and complex and it’s an end of one problem in a lot of ways, health is in a lot of ways.

Brett Redinger (40:26):

But there’s simple stuff that we know. Right? And that’s right one of the beauty in the focus, I love David Sinclair’s work and just go into this root problem, get down to the… He went down to a first principle to find this, well him and a variety other people I’m not properly crediting, but to understand that when you get too much sugar or well I mean, glucose, we call it, really ATP is the currency by which all life form exchanges for movement and energy. Right?

Brett Redinger (40:55):

I don’t have to go that far into the weeds, but if you can get it at the right amount, you can reduce inflammation. And when you look at an AI company I worked at prior, we looked at CT scans and we looked for hotspots. We used AI to train hotspot finding. Hotspot finding was inflammation.

Brett Redinger (41:09):

Inflammation was basically stored glucose, from what I’ve come to understand. Getting at this fundamental low level, this one thing some people would call oh, maybe glucose is just this, the new trend of… First it was this and it was that. I think it’s actually pinpointing the problem. I don’t think there’s a sub problem lower than that one.

Ben Grynol (41:28):

So all the biometric markers are, so many of them that contribute to overall metabolic health and that’s the key is educating people about not just what the Levels are, but giving them insight into the way that they fluctuate day to day.

Ben Grynol (41:42):

That’s a problem with the way health and wellness has been undertaken up to this day. Is that it’s, “Hey, go get a check and come back, 365 days later and get another check.” And it’s that one data point in over the course of a year means, this for you. And that’s just the wrong way of going about it because that is not the way that our bodies work.

Ben Grynol (42:04):

They continue to fluctuate and there are biomarkers that are ever changing and so, that’s what it comes down to there’s a lot of work to do when it comes to helping people to understand what the markers are, what they mean, giving them the right education and tools, and then helping them to create habits that will allow those to change over time.

Brett Redinger (42:24):

Totally. So we’ve talked about triggers. We’ve talked about action. We talked about everything in different pockets, but just to close it. Trigger, action, investment, so reward. I can pretty, I actually start at this.

Brett Redinger (42:36):

I start at… Because I see a cost benefit analysis upfront as cost reward. Every screen I’ll look at it as I’m designing it and I’ll think, where’s the reward here? The cognitive load the, how much information are we presenting at a time? And then what am I getting out of it? Every screen, there’s countless. Right?

Brett Redinger (42:55):

I have these little green bars in my head. Little red, green. And cognitive load, well, this is the interesting part about reward. Load can be through the roof and reward is a little higher. Still happens. You still see it. You pay taxes. I pay taxes, taxes are terrible. I hate doing it. I do it every year and I hate it. Just talking about it. I get a pinch on my shoulder, but it’s a physical reaction. I hate being nicer.

Brett Redinger (43:20):

But the reward is that I don’t go to jail. And there you go, I don’t want to go to jail and I don’t want to spend more than I’m already going to spend on taxes. I have this fun brain tease. Some people try to get out of it and say they wouldn’t do it. But I, the majority, so I say right now, “Ben, hey, I’m a little cold and I left a sweater outside of your place. It’s somewhere within a couple blocks of your house, I forgot where I parked. My car’s there, will you go run out?” And just like, “I don’t have my keys, just break the window and grab my sweater.”

Brett Redinger (43:50):

You’re like, “No! Because you have a draft. You’re barely cold. We’re buddies. I’m not going to go and break into a car to get your sweater.” And then, okay, now let’s return, rewind all the way back then. “I’m about to flee the country, I left $750 million in the back of a black car. It’s in a bag, unmarked bills, untraceable. It’s all yours. I can’t get it on this airplane. I’m about to go get on this helicopter.” And I run off and you hear a helicopter. So it’s that’s what you’re left with.

Brett Redinger (44:25):

Are you going to just leave 750 million and have a car? That’s like go right there. The load went from, all you have to do is just roam arounds a black car. You will see the bag inside the window. It’s like, “No, at least go check it out.” It’s like, “All right, smashing a window, how bad is that for 700? And I can do it.” I mean, you go to a billion. I guess everybody’s got a different number. Right?

Brett Redinger (44:45):

But I’ve had people back, I used to start with a million, but like, “I would never do that. I would never do that.” And it’s like, “Think about that for a little bit, that car’s sitting out there and I’m gone. I just left in a helicopter.”

Brett Redinger (44:54):

So it’s when the load is just slightly higher than the… It’s there. The reward, you can paint reward as long as it’s higher than load. It’s a really fun game to play if anything.